Read the full transcript of Episode 55 of the NAIS New View EDU podcast, which features twin brothers Peter and Paul Reynolds. Together, they have built a life of service to others through creativity as authors, illustrators, designers, educators, bookstore owners, and digital media executives. They share a passion for inspiring others and helping people find their path in life through creativity, kindness, and what they call “hard fun.” Peter and Paul join host Tim Fish to talk about how their shared work has led them to become deeply involved in schools, both through working with students and through founding initiatives to uplift and support educators.
Tim Fish: Wonder, creativity, joy, expression, journey, empathy, resilience.
When I talk with educators from around the country, these are the kind of words I hear when folks describe the attributes they hope their school develops. This is the good stuff. This is the secret sauce; these words, these dispositions, are what make our schools so special.
Well, friends, today we get to talk to two twin brothers who have dedicated their lives to helping young people and adults embrace these words. Peter H. Reynolds: and Paul Reynolds: are authors, designers, bookstore owners, teachers, and studio executives. It is amazing when you look at everything Peter and Paul are doing together, and the impact they are having on the world.
Peter H. Reynolds: is a renowned author and illustrator. He’s written books like The Dot, Ish, Sky Color, Happy Dreamer, and many more. Paul is the CEO of FableVision Studios and a teacher of digital media at Boston College. He lives in Dedham, Mass., where he also runs a bookshop called The Blue Bunny. And together, they have founded the Reynolds Center for Teaching, Learning, and Creativity to help shape the future of education.
There is so much happening in the Reynolds brothers’ corner of the world! I can’t wait to dig in. Let’s get these creative juices flowing.
Peter and Paul, thank you so much for joining us today on New View EDU. I am so excited for this conversation.
Paul Reynolds: As are we Tim, so awesome to connect the dots with you.
Tim Fish: Connect the dots. Absolutely. You know, I'll tell you, your work. I mean, even in the brief intro, I couldn't even begin to scratch the surface with what the two of you are working on, and how you collaborate together.
So can we start off, just from your point of view? What is it that you do? What's at the center? What's your purpose? Why do you get up every morning? What impact are you trying to make? Because I'll tell you from a distance, I see amazing impact on the world.
Paul and Peter H. Reynolds: Oh, awesome. Thank you. Thank you, Tim.
Peter H. Reynolds: Well, yeah, I was just—
Paul Reynolds: —Peter, you want to—
Peter H. Reynolds: Yes, this is Peter. Yeah. I just want to say that we, you know, we must have known that we were going to be very busy because our parents, Keith and Hazel, made us twins.
Paul Reynolds: We say thank goodness there are two of us.
Peter H. Reynolds: Yeah. So, yeah. So we, you know, we have been hanging out together for a very long time.
Paul Reynolds: That's right, since the cell split, I believe.
Peter H. Reynolds: Yes, I remember that. That was very—
Paul Reynolds:
–Slightly painful, but it was worth going through the split.
Peter H. Reynolds: But we have been absolutely immersed in storytelling and learning and also civic engagement. I mean, our mother, Hazel, especially was a, she was a juggernaut of energy.
Paul Reynolds: Civically addicted.
Peter H. Reynolds: She worked full time, but she still had time to be involved in the community through scouting program for Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts and also religious ed and all sorts of other community activities. And I think just that energy like, wow, boundless energy, and also very positive. She, I really think she taught us that good things are coming. I mean, she grew up in London during the war, and her childhood was bombs dropping and seeing the world falling apart and she, and her family held it together. And I think that resilience kind of passed on to us and that sense of mission, of, hey, we can make this world a better place, that the world doesn't have to fall apart. And as we probably all know, the world is kind of falling apart, but you have to stay even more hopeful.
And you know, I hear people getting despondent. And you know, I think one of our missions is to tell stories that will lift people up.
Paul Reynolds: Yeah, just helping us understand that, you know, our mission is to discern, for ourselves to do this and to encourage other people to discern your gifts, talents, and strengths, discern and recognize that you are creative. You were born a creative problem solver, and that cultivating creativity and not just creativity, but positive, purposeful creativity. And that, how can you harness that tremendous power to move the world to a better place in some way, your school, your community, your state, the world?
Tim Fish: So tell me a little bit. I mean, so your work, I mean, through the books, certainly through the bookstore, through FableVision studios, through the new, through the center, things you're doing, you've been sort of giving back in that, in that way. One of the things I love so much about your books is that there's narrated versions of them on YouTube that you can just sort of engage with and enjoy. And the physical books themselves are so beautiful that you want to, you want to have both.
But the part that also really gets me is, as we've been thinking about, and as I look at the words that you so, I think so much bring into your work – things, your books for me talk about individuality and balance and voice and resilience and patience and bravery and confidence. These are the kinds of things that you're developing through your stories.
And it makes me think about, and one of the guiding questions of this podcast has been, well, why do we even have school? Like, what is the purpose of school now? You know, 125 years ago, it probably was about helping people learn stuff, right? But we live in a very different technological world now. The sort of stuff you need to know is accessible in a lot of different places. So what should school be doing? What should it really be about? What's the purpose, do you think, of school?
Peter H. Reynolds: Well, I'm going to add that to my list of the 10 most important questions we can ask kids, because I think asking kids what school should be, and also where, because school is a place, right? And then something happens inside that school. Sometimes you eat and sometimes you play basketball and then sometimes you learn. And sometimes you memorize, right? And sometimes you think.
But I would love to hear kids, you know, what do kids think learning spaces should look like? Because I mean, we're big believers that yes, school, learning does happen in school a lot of times, and sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes things happen in schools that are sort of counter to the mission. You may have the most important question in your mind, but I think that number one on the list is a really powerful question. It's only three words. Who are you?
Who are you? And I think being able to answer that question is hard. It's hard work. And it doesn't take just 12 years. It probably, it may take, you know, 50 years. It could take 99 years. Who are you? And you know, once we find out who that human being is in front of us that we're trying to inspire, right, because we say you could teach, or you can inspire. We'd like to say that, you know, we'd rather inspire people, right, inspire people to be the best version of themselves, right? To navigate their true potential. And we would like to help you and not just put it all on you and say, Hey, Tim, it's all it's all on you, you figure it out. That's really hard work.
So, you know, as hopefully wise elders, we might be able to, like if we find out, Tim, that you love motorcycles, we can get you engaged in math, geography, science, engineering, history, reading, just using motorcycles so we can take your interest. So we're very big on interest-based education. Find out where are you now, where are you going?
And end up at sort of the north, we call it the north star question, where would you like to be going? Because where you would like to be going might be different than where you are going. And, you know, dare people to dream. That's our other big thing is, dare people to dream. And you can dream big, but there's, with everything, like even in the book, The Dot, right? This little girl who's really frustrated. She doesn't know how to start. And the teacher basically, just make your mark. She makes this one little dot on the page, but it's the beginning of her journey.
And then in this book, you see her beginning to bloom more dots, different kinds of dots, sculpture dots. And she also shares her passion with others. So we have to start, you have to start somewhere.
Tim Fish: Well, you know, and what I love so much, like if you look at the book, The North Star, that you've written, right? And in that book, it's a story of a boy who's on a journey. And two things really spoke to me about it, number one is that the boy's on the journey by himself. A young boy is on a journey by himself. And it makes me think about, in my childhood, when I was at my happiest, I was outside the view of my parents. I was in the woods or I was in the backyard. There was this pine tree I used to love sitting under. And so I think the book speaks to that.
The second thing is that there's a path in the book. There's signs that say, go this way, go this way, go this way. And the boy begins to wander off the path. And in that part of the book, it actually inspired some anxiety for me, like he's going to get lost.
And the lesson that emerges is find your path. Where are you going? Right? And for me, like that is the, that is, if we were to boil down sort of these 50 now plus conversations we've had. Agency, self-determination, find your path, make your dot, has been at the center of our conversations. Right?
Paul & Peter H. Reynolds: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm.
Tim Fish: And when I talk with teachers and we're like, what is it? What is it when it's working in a classroom? What's present? They describe those things. And yet sometimes as we know, that, and especially I think you talk about it quite a bit in the book, The Happy Dreamer. The dreamer is wrestling around in that desk because the way we structure school doesn't allow us to be those dreamers all the time.
I'm curious, what are those conditions that you all see? Cause I hear teachers talking about it all the time. What are the conditions you see that, when school’s doing these things, I mean, even talk a little bit about maybe TLC Studio and where you're going with creating the space for teachers to feel that magic themselves.
Peter H. Reynolds: I love that you said space, right? I think that's one of the things we kind of don't pay enough attention to, although I know that there's lots of, there are people innovating in the space of space, right? In learning spaces, what should they look like? So there are some architects who are really innovating in that space.
I visit schools across the country and around the world, and a lot of schools look exactly the same. I could draw you the school. It is called the school, and the school with the front door and the office in the front. And you have to check in and then there's a long hallway and there are little rectangular boxes off of this hallway. And it usually goes in a square. And somewhere along there, you may have a library. Not all schools do. I was just in West Virginia, up in the mountains, and the lunchroom had two shelves in the back, with the janitor's equipment leaned up against the bookshelves.
Tim Fish: And that was the library, Peter, that was the library?
Peter H. Reynolds: That was, that was the library.
And so, I think, you know, this country, we, we're so famous for innovation, right? In, you know, Silicon Valley and in Hollywood and in publishing, uh, there, we need to put much more emphasis on innovation in the learning space. And again, the physical space makes a difference. There are some schools I walk into, you walk in, and the first thing you see, you actually walk into the library. And in order to get to the principal's office, you walk through the library. I'm like, that's just so awesome.
And the library is awesome because it's, you know, like a little free range chicken, you can just go around this room and you can find your book, right? Cause you can't read all of the books unless, I mean, I guess, actually that was something I wanted to do, when I was growing up. Yeah, I discovered the public library and I loved it. And I thought to myself, I wonder if I could read every book. And I actually thought that I could, you know, I made an attempt, but realized that was kind of impossible. So if you can't read all of them, which ones are you going to read? And that's what's wonderful about librarians, that they can actually guide you. And they, librarians will say, Well, what are you interested in? That, see, that gets closer to who are you?
So if I know you love motorcycles, it's like, OK, I can, you know, I can show you a book, and it might not be motorcycles, it could just be like, oh, the open road, you know, there's something about traveling from getting your freedom, you know. And so space, space is really important. So I think, really thinking about what do schools feel like, how much color do you have in your school? How much? How many surprises do you have in your school?
Are there things that could be more dynamic? ‘Cause there are some things that have, you walk 20 years later and it's still, that bookshelf is in the same spot. The room looks a lot like it did 20 years ago. How can you shake things up?
And that's why it's exciting talking about, to you, Tim, and your audience, people who are independent thinkers and learning in these spaces that, you have a little bit more freedom. How can we DNA splice the innovation that's happening in independent schools, in charter schools? And also learning settings like in museums, because learning happens. We always say learning happens everywhere. It happens at the home, in your backyard, on the drive home from the museum, in the gift shop. There are a lot of places that learning happens in. I always say that sometimes learning happens in school and, you know, people chuckle because they sort of get what I'm saying. And, you know, we love teachers. We adore teachers. We think that they're doing amazing things.
Especially, I mean, public education. Any public educator that's listening to this, thank you for what you do, because it has always been a tough job. It got tougher, incredibly tough during COVID. And it's getting even tougher because of, you know, political climate has changed and people are, you know, there are magnifying glasses on things that we didn't have to worry about before.
There's also technology. God bless technology. That's how we're connecting the dots today and sharing this message. But man, the amount of attention that is being sucked from humans onto that scrolling screen. And adults and kids have been swept into it. It's not like, oh, you know, those kids and television, no, adults are, kids are looking at adults and saying, you know, well, you know, they're doing it. So I don't even think they're conscious that it's like, oh dad's doing it. I can do it. It's just that there's no one to say do you know what? Let's wait, let's put our phones down for a while, right?
So one of our next projects is called TLC Studios. The TLC stands for Teaching, Learning and Creativity. But of course it also means tender loving care, which we think that educators deserve.
Tim Fish: Yes.
Peter H. Reynolds: We also think that's one of the missing pieces, is that, the, that TLC piece for teachers, like keeping them in the game, keeping them, keeping their spirits fully charged, not just monetary rewards. It is listening to teachers and saying, hey, you guys are on the front line. You guys are the innovators, because great teachers are winging it. You know, yeah, you have a game plan. You're like, OK, we're going to be studying Cleopatra.
And so you have your lesson plan, but if, if you have a great idea or if you see a kid struggling, a good example is that you see a kid struggling and you, great teachers know how to go off script and connect with that student. And it may only work for that one student, say, well, that, like, I, I saw a kid struggling drawing and he was, he was drawing a, this tiger and I thought it was the coolest tiger.
I turn around, he's erasing the tiger. And I ran over to him, like, Oh, what are you doing? He said, Oh, it's supposed to be a tiger. It doesn't look like one. I said, it just popped out of my mouth. I said, it's tiger-ish. And he looked at me with a smile. And he's like tiger-ish? And I'm like, yeah, it's got tiger energy. I love it. Immediately without saying anything, the kids in the classroom ran up to me, they were drawing animals, we were creating fables. I said, everyone draw an animal. They showed me monkey-ish and snake-ish and elephant-ish. They immediately got that this ish thing gave them permission to do it their way.
Tim Fish: That's right, that's right.
Peter H. Reynolds: And I thought, I better remember that. So I just wrote the word ish down. And it was probably a year later that I said, I've used it so many times now, so successfully, that I would like to share this little innovation. And again, people listening, you're all having your innovations, you have those little wing it moments, and just don't forget them, right? So write them down.
Better yet, dip them in some story.
Paul Reynolds: So FableVision and the Reynolds Center for Teaching, Learning, Creativity, Reynolds TLC, story is important to us for two ways. One is, you know, the stories that we create, whether they're book form or animated films or the audio versions, help people think differently. And we think that, you know, that that narrative transportation, going into a story and coming back out, somehow transformed in some way, makes people more confident. We were talking about that earlier. I think that that's one of the secret ingredients, it's confidence. It’s confidence. And I would say, even our high-performing kids who test well, and the gifted students, still have that voice saying, this is not making me happy.
This is, you know, I have not found my purpose. I have not found my mission. And in some ways that's as much of a rescue mission as the kids who are, you know, aren’t testing well or not showing up. And we've seen, sadly, tragic results where kids just think, I don't measure up. I don't even measure up to my own version of who I think I'm supposed to be. So actually you're not supposed to be anything other than who you're meant to be. And our job is to make sure that you get there no matter what.
And so that social and emotional support that we give through the books is really important to have people create bravely. And when we say create, it's, sure, create art and stories, but it's also, I think that learning is self-design. We're creating ourselves every single day. And you imagine, I mean, that's the vision of FableVision, to vision something that doesn't exist yet, and I can vision who I want to become. And if I can share that with caring adults, teachers, librarians, they'll help me get to that place.
Peter H. Reynolds: Sharing, important, right? And you just said confidence, very, very important. When I was writing the book Say Something, I did a little research on fears. Because I knew that standing in front of an audience, I knew it must be up there somewhere in the, you know, people are afraid of public speaking.
And when I did my research, it was amazing to see how high it ranked. In some of the lists, public speaking was number one fear, above snakes, spiders, fear of heights. And I thought that was kind of stunning because you can be smart, you can be even inspired, but if you're afraid to share your voice, it's… change will either be very, very slow, or it may also not happen, or if you keep quiet and you let the noisy people run this world, some things will happen that you might not like, and you're going to have to deal with it because you didn't say anything.
So in the book Say Something, I actually, I kind of offer this array of ways to say something, right? You could certainly say it with your voice, with a microphone. You could say it with us. But if that is too much, you could record a song. You can write a story, you can create posters, you can wear something on your shirt that says, you know, that how you, what you believe. There are a lot of ways to share your voice with the world.
Paul Reynolds: So we work with amazing nonprofits around the world who are causing education, learning in creative ways through animation and game design, mobile games, interactives. But TLC Studios is the place where we're opening up the doors to teachers to come in. So it's sort of like getting to go behind the scenes and actually teaching you the skills to be creative, to be the producer, to be the filmmaker, to be the podcast producer. And then also inspire you to create bravely.
Create bravely is one of our big mantras. After all these years of practice, it really kind of comes down to those two words. And we want teachers to feel recharged, that their creative spirit is recharged, go back into their classrooms and help cause that, you know, that ripple effect, and support their kids in their own creative journey.
Tim Fish: In their own creative, you know, and I think that's the, that's the piece, when you feel it as a teacher, when you are in that space, when you create something, when you feel your own agency and your own creative energy, right? I think it helps us.
I always found when I was teaching that if I was doing, when I did something that forced me to be a learner, to be a novice, right? When I would sit in that, a little bit of that angst, that it helped me understand better and have more empathy for what my students were experiencing.
And it brings up a topic that we've been talking about a lot on the podcast, that I think you really get at. And it's this idea of what we call productive struggle, right? It's not our term, other people have used it. And this notion, the really important element of school is that sense of struggle.
But what we've been curious about is like, when is struggle effective or appropriate or beneficial, and when is struggle not effective or beneficial? And a lot of it comes down to that sense of how much does what I'm working on matter to me? And how much do I feel that I matter, right? We had a great interview with Jennie Wallace, who wrote a book around achievement culture, and around this idea that sometimes one of the things that we, if you want to put something in the center of school, put mattering.
Students feeling like they matter, and students are engaged in important work that matters to them. And just, for me, that was like, that's a huge thing. And I think it's so much present in the work that you all are doing. How do we create the space where people feel they matter?
Peter H. Reynolds: Yeah. Lots of things are, you know, there's, there are kernels of corn in our head that pop like popcorn, every time a new idea pops, but a lot of popcorn is popping right now. And I love that, the productive struggle, we call it hard fun.
Tim Fish: I love it, hard fun, yes.
Peter H. Reynolds: And in gaming, we, you know, we design video games to help cause learning. And we always talk about hard fun. Game designers are pretty clever, because they have figured out that it, on that first level, hard enough to be fun, right? And not too hard that you say, I'm going to try another game.
Paul Reynolds: And if it's too easy, you get bored.
Tim Fish: Yeah, kids don't want school to be easy, right?
Peter H. Reynolds: No, they like the challenge.
Paul Reynolds: They like the challenge. Human beings like the challenge. And game designers know how to throttle it just at that perfect spot. And then once you've achieved mastery on that level, what happens, you level up to the next thing.
Peter H. Reynolds: I was going to say another piece of popcorn popping is that this idea that you matter, yes. Who are you? Important question. Is it easy to answer that? No, it's kinda hard.
So I always, in the North Star book, you see the little boy and he finally, he wins his way out of this swamp when he realizes he has a map. He didn't realize he had a map. And it sort of happens accidentally, that this bird helps him discover this map that he had all along. It's the stars right above him, right? Navigators use stars to navigate. So he realized, he looked in the place that he hadn't looked at in a very long time. He looked up, and he saw stars. And this map helps him, guide him on his journey. Doesn't get him to where he's going, just guide him out of the swamp.
So get out of the swamp, and as you're heading towards the place that you were meant to be, help others. It's an important part of the North Star story, if you see as he's wending his way out of the swamp, he sees this little rabbit and the rabbit is struggling in this river and he uses his talent and creativity and his imagination to solve the problem and rescue the rabbit. So.
Paul Reynolds: And his fascination with floating things that we see in the very beginning of the book, of course, comes back and he knows how to build.
Tim Fish: Yeah, yeah, designs the boat, right, for the rabbit.
Peter H. Reynolds: That's right. His fascination with floating things, floating stars, floating leaves, floating sticks that turn into a boat, help this rabbit.
So as you are on that journey to figure out who you are, who you're meant to be, what is your North Star, help others on their journey. And that is where community service is huge. And I just feel like that needs to be in its own course, or its own something in school. That community service, of course you do community service.
My daughter, Sarah, when she was, I think in seventh grade, she was in the gifted and talented program, and every child took on a community service project. They collected blankets for the shelter. They created greeting cards for the senior center. And we did a presentation, they did a presentation at the end of the year with slides. And I was weeping. I'm like, oh my God, there are so, there are 72 amazing projects that changed this community. But this thing that made me cry even more is that not every student in school had that experience. Why was it just this particular group? Those were the lucky ones, but everything I saw, all of that love, all of that compassion for the community, was in every student in that school, there were 400 other kids that would have benefited from connecting with the community.
So that is part of our mix too, is that civic engagement is really, really important. Yes, you can sing, yes, you can dance, yes, you can. How are you going to use those gifts and talents to make this world a better place? And it doesn't have to be, it could be, I always tell kids, your mission, start with you, make sure you brush your teeth and then, and eat well.
But then also you can clean up your bedroom, organize it. You can help with, around the house. And then that circle grows wider. Like you could plant some flowers and then how about your neighborhood? And maybe you could help the baker design a new sign. And then as you get more confident, you can say, hey, I could help my state, I could help my country, I could help the world.
Paul Reynolds: We did a film called Above and Beyond for the partnership for 21st century skills, and the four top skills for being productive, productive citizens and good human beings were communication, collaboration, critical thinking. And our favorite one made the list, creativity. We're like, we can't even believe out of this, the 17 skills and the framework, they circled the four, three or four of the most important ones, spent another two years deciding which ones.
And those four made the top of the list. So, you know, otherwise known as the four C's. But we always, when we talk about, we always sneak in the fifth C, which is compassion.
Tim Fish: I love it.
Paul Reynolds: Because you can communicate, collaborate, do a lot of critical thinking, and very creative in ways to hurt people or invade a country. So we, you know, the compassion piece is huge. It's without, and we tell kids every time we go into schools, You know, kind kids are our kind of kids.
And kind adults are our kind of adults. And, you know, sadly, that's something that, that fabric, that civic fabric has been fraying, you know, in the last, you know, almost decade. And we have to, that's one of the things we have to all work on collectively. If we can do that with our kids in schools and our colleagues, then, you know, that will move the world to a better place, for sure.
Tim Fish: Yeah, you're right on with that. And you know, for me, it's also, when I look at the North Star book, right? We were just talking about it, at the very end, I think it says something to the effect of “in the beginning,” or the beginning, and the beginning instead of the end. The beginning. And I love that notion that once you found your North star, once you know, once you sort of discovered your why or your purpose or who you're beginning to discover who you are, you're right back at the beginning again. The opportunity that still lies in front of you, which I think is such a magical message to send to young people and adults.
And I also love, I've heard you, Peter, speak on an interview somewhere, and you're talking about how they seem like children's books, but they're not necessarily only written, certainly not necessarily only written for children. I wonder if the stories you both tell, if you have examples of where your stories have resonated very directly with adults.
Peter H. Reynolds: Oh, there's so– we could probably write a book about just the way adults react to the books.
Paul Reynolds: Right. And I'm glad you brought that up, Tim, because, you know, we, we make pains to say they're not children's books, they’re picture books for all ages. And we, as, as you've said before, you know, the older we get, the more we actually understand them. And because we've lived through the pain and the struggle and understand that, you know, wisdom really is hard won, often hard won.
Peter H. Reynolds: Picture books happen to be a very good form of storytelling for busy adults, because we busy adults, sometimes I don't know if you like, oh, I should read that book, you see this book, and it's like 400 pages on how to slow yourself down. And because you like the notion, you're like, maybe if I spend, I spent a few nights reading those 400 pages, I will somehow, I'll, you know, I'll receive that little essence of information that will help me, you know, slow it down.
Or you can read a five minute picture book. I wrote a book called So Few of Me, about this busy guy who is so busy, he starts making lists to help organize his life and it starts growing longer and longer. And he finally, he says, you know, if only there were two of me, there's a knock on the door and he opens it up and there is another version of him.
But the other version of him also likes to make lists. So it actually, you know–
Paul Reynolds: –Doubles the work.
Peter H. Reynolds: Right, doubles the work. And of course, him being another him, which is for another. So there are three and then it grows to 10 of them. And eventually he's exhausted and he sneaks off and has a little nap. And he, when he wakes up, the nine other hymns are there and they're quite upset with him. They're like, what do you think you were doing? And he said, I was dreaming. And they said, dreaming was not on the list. And he chuckles, and as he chuckles, they begin to disappear one by one.
And he realizes that maybe if he did less and just did his best, then just one, one Leo would be just enough, with time to dream. So in five minutes, I'm able to deliver this notion to busy adults to slow down. I actually wrote the book for myself because I was speeding up so, so much. And I said, I actually have to be intentional about creating spaces for myself to hear myself think.
Paul Reynolds: But the power of story for adults is huge. I remember in the middle of a busy school fair, I was running one of the tables and this very tall gentleman, well dressed, comes up to me and he's like, oh, are you Peter Reynolds? I said, oh, I'm, you know, almost, I'm his twin brother. He's like, can you just deliver a message to Peter, just of thanks, of deep thanks.
And he described that he was a CEO or executive at a telecom company during one of the many recessions of the past, and the Telecom industry was being just devastated at that time. And he said, I keep the North Star book by my table, and on my toughest nights when I think I can't go on, I pick up the book and reread it.
And you know, there's a moment in the book where it says, you know, there are some parts of the easy, some parts of the journey were easy and some were difficult. And that's a productive struggle. But story can help you through the struggle and let you understand that there is hope on the horizon. And for whatever reason, that little storybook became his touchstone that helped him get through what sounds like it was a really, really potentially tragic moment in his life.
But I also do the same thing. I teach at university level, undergrad communication students. And every year, my seniors, I always get a bunch of them who come up to me and some with tears rolling down their cheeks saying, you know, they're about to graduate and they're petrified because they say, I have no idea what I want to do. It's a very expensive place to be.
Tim Fish: Yes, yes. If you have no idea what you want to do, yes.
Paul Reynolds: And I always reassure them, actually, I think you do. In fact, I know you do. And we read the North Star, I give them the copy of the North Star, and we have a little reproducible that we have that helps you map out your stars. Like what stars are shining brightly for Tim Fish? Education and podcasting and teaching, maybe a conversation with somebody or a place that you went. And each star becomes something important to you.
So it's not just one thing, because I tell kids, like kids, my college students, and colleagues. It's going to be multiple things that you're interested in. Creative self-design is, connect as many of those stars as possible to, you know, when you stare up into the sky, into the starscape, it's like, I can't see anything, I can't see anything, and bing, you actually start discerning the shape. And if we could spend time, like Pete was saying, spend enough time to actually, you know, have your constellation appear.
And guarantee you, like, if you can connect multiple stars and design a career and a pathway that actually, you know, involve things that matter to you, that give you a sense of purpose and joy, you're on your way. I mean, that's what we did. And, you know, we're, you know, 27, 28 years in with FableVision, the Reynolds Center, with spinoffs, like our Blue Bunny Bookstore outside of, you know, Boston, which is one of our happy places.
Tim Fish: Well, I love it. And I love that you clearly are doing that and you're clearly finding your path. And for me, that one thing that comes through also, I think for young people and for educators and for all of us is this idea that sometimes to find your path, you kind of need to walk off the path. Right?
Peter H. Reynolds: Absolutely, right? Amen.
Tim Fish: And that, that was the piece of the North Star. As I said that, I was like, oh no, he's leaving the path, right? I had the opportunity, we did a podcast episode about this. I had the opportunity to take a sabbatical a few months ago and I walked the Camino de Santiago in Spain, this sort of 500 mile path across Northern Spain.
Paul Reynolds: Oh wow. Yeah, wow, good for you.
Tim Fish: And it taught me so much about sort of the power of a path, right? And the sort of finding your own, for me it was about finding my own path within a path. That it was important to stay on that journey, to stay on that path, but also to do it my way, that there's a big thing on the Camino that everybody walks their own Camino. Right? And, and I think that is a really key element here.
You know, the last piece I want to jump in on is one of another one of my favorite books is Sky Color. And the thing about Sky Color for me was the idea that it – sort of quick summary – is there's a bunch of kids and they're making this big mural. And the one girl says, I'll paint the sky. And then she can't find blue, right? She can't find blue paint. And she then looks at the sky. This is my interpretation. Looks at the sky in a new way, and notices the colors that are present in the sky. And also she finds it's in the constraint of not having blue, that the creativity to see a more beautiful sky emerges, like that's my read of it. Please tell me if that's not what you intended, but it's this idea of constraints and the importance of, just like productive struggle, the importance of constraints, sometimes, in unlocking creativity.
Peter H. Reynolds: Yeah, yeah. And I do think in the book, yeah, she's on her way home from school and you know, she takes the late bus and the sun is setting and of course the sky is changing. And I like to think that maybe she isn't aware. It's not like this immediately, Oh, hey, the sky could be a lot of different colors. I, for me, I think it's happening subconsciously that she's beginning to open up that door, because she's pondering like, How the heck am I going to paint a sky without blue?
So she kind of opens up that door, and the world is sort of saying, by the way, Marisol, the sky can be peach colored and violet. And then at nighttime, it turns black and it's speckled with silver stars. And she wakes up in the morning, it's raining, and the sky is saying, hey, I can also be silver and gray. And then she had, sort of the penny drops really there in that rain, in the middle of this rainstorm. It's like, wow, that's right. It can be so many things.
So, you know, our first answer may be right. Yes, the sky can be blue. But your second answer is going to be more interesting. Your third, your fourth, your fifth. And you can even have, you know, wrong answers. And we, of course, we always say wrong-ish, because it always leads to finding a new discovery. But, you know, when I, I love to read that book with kids and grownup kids, too. And I, at the end, I say, OK, quick question. What color is an apple?
In unison, I'll have 500 kids say red. And within a millisecond, they realize they fell, they fell right into a stereotype. And then they’re like, quickly they're saving themselves. Ah, green, ah, it could be speckled. It could be, and I'm like, what happens if you cut an apple in half? Oh, what color is it? Oh, it's white. And then they’re like, white-ish, it's green-ish, yellow-ish. I'm like, and if you leave it there for half an hour, they're like, oh, beige and brown.
And if it rolls underneath the couch and you find it a year later, what color will it be? And they're like, it's black, it's brown. I'm like, yeah, it's a really cool color. You should try that experiment sometime. And so I said, when we do that deep dive, the answers get more and more interesting. And so that is with life. You know, if you only give something just a cursory think, you may even get sort of a correct answer, but if you really do that deep dive, it's going to get really, really interesting.
Tim Fish: So many of the books speak to me. It's funny. It's so funny. You know, every one, I read a new one. And I'm like, OK, like, I, the last one I thought was my favorite. And now I'm going to read this one. And it is so great, because you can read them very quickly. And in particular, also, for me, this notion that I think you play so well is this notion of empathy. And I think in the book I'm Here, you do that particularly well, with feeling for the boy who's not connected to all the other kids.
And in that book, I want to close with the quote from the book that just speaks to me so much. And it speaks to me because also educators, I think our educators every day, I see this come true. And the quote is, “To the world, you may be one person, but to one person, you may be the world.”
And for me, I, when I travel around our schools, and I have the privilege of walking up and down hallways and being in those rectangular boxes that are all the same. What I see are adults in those rooms who are being that one person, so often, to a young person. And I just want to close with just saying thank you both for everything you do every day. This has been such a gift of a conversation. And I'm wondering, That's my sort of closing on how I think of educators. Do you have any closing thoughts for educators?
Paul Reynolds: Well, number one, I mean, you know, we totally resonate with that sentiment that you just helped frame out there. You know, we adore teachers and librarians and creative leaders who are out there every day, who are causing the little miracles within the boxes, and within having to deal with all of the stuff that comes with administrating a modern learning environment. And we cannot thank them enough.
We did a short animated film called Keepers of the Flame, which if you look it up, FableVision, Keepers of the Flame, that's our little animated poem to teachers. And so, yeah, that's my one thought.
I mean, that's the TLC part of TLC Studios and Reynolds TLC. And we want to make sure that the teachers know that they are appreciated.
Peter H. Reynolds: Right. So definitely, yes, take care of yourselves, recharge your creative batteries. And, you know, show your kids what creativity looks like, show your kids what bravery looks like. Not always easy. But we're here, you know, if you need a little nudge, read one of our books.
But all the frontline educators out there, I think it would be very fulfilling if they realize that they're part of this mission. It's not a job. It's a mission. And give yourself permission to innovate. Go off script and see what happens.
Paul Reynolds: And share what works. And that's why this podcast, Tim, is really important. We believe in the power of innovation transfer and great ideas. You know, it's an, we're in an unprecedented moment in the history of the planet. The great ideas actually can, if they're meaningful and authentic, can, can sweep across that network. And like International Dot Day was started by a teacher. It didn't start, wasn't started by us. It was Terry Shea in Iowa who read the book, The Dot, to his kids. They all decided to celebrate something they decided to call Dot Day on the publishing date of the book, September 15th, and then of course, thank you, internet.
You know, people heard about it and we heard about it when there were 17,500 participants. And that year our nonprofit adopted it, and it jumped from 17,000 to 850,000 in 50 countries. And that's when it became International Dot Day. And as of this past Dot Day, we went over 29 million participants in 190 countries. That did not happen because of us. It's, it was sparked by a story, but it was an innovative educator connecting the dots with other innovative educators, librarians, teachers, who are in a connected universe. And it literally, it's swept the globe.
And if our mission is to unleash the creative, positive human potential in the world, that partnership with the creative educator literally changed the world.
Tim Fish: And you have a big, you have a big anniversary coming up this year in 2024, don't you? Isn't that the, isn't that the 20th year?
Peter H. Reynolds: 20th year. And yes, and The Dot book just celebrated 20 years as well. So, I mean, that's a good place to start for people who don't know us, to read The Dot, International Dot Day is another fun easy project to kind of get things rolling, but we would love to hear from your listeners. We love connecting the dots and learning what you are doing on the front line.
Paul Reynolds: And if you want to, if you're in the Boston area, come, come hang out with us.
Peter H. Reynolds: Our bookstore or now TLC Studios, which is right around the corner from the bookstore in Dedham, Massachusetts.
Paul Reynolds: We can start with a coffee in the morning together because we have a nice espresso bar in the bookstore.
Peter H. Reynolds: We do.
Paul Reynolds: We'll wander over to TLC Studios. We'll do some green screen production. And we will–
Tim Fish: –I've heard that the two of you can often be found making the coffee.
Paul Reynolds: Oh, yes. This is actually true. Peter is, Peter–
Peter H. Reynolds: –I'm a very good barista. But we also, and we'll just end with this, is that your story is important. Tim's story is important. Everybody who is listening, your story is important. The little nuggets of wisdom that you've collected along the way, we encourage you to share them. And story is a really lovely way to do that.
So if we can help you tell your story, it might be a picture book, it could be a song, it could be an animated film, could be a musical. We are going to encourage you to do that and let us all join our voices, and let's change this world together.
Tim Fish: Yes, I love it. Thank you both so much.
Paul & Peter H. Reynolds: Thank you. Thank you, Tim. This was really fun.