Read the full transcript of Episode 63 of the NAIS New View EDU podcast, which features Megan Kennedy, director of the University of Washington Resilience Lab. Megan joins host Morva McDonald to share what the Resilience Lab does, how their efforts are shaping campus culture, and what their research shows about the efficacy of a systems-based approach to fostering resilience.
Morva McDonald: Before I met Megan Kennedy, I often thought of resilience as like an attribute of an individual, characteristic. We often hear that a kid's resilient or that that's a resilient kid. I knew enough actually as a head of school to ask about in what situation was a kid resilient, knowing that some kids demonstrate resilience in traditional classroom learning environments, while others or maybe even the same kid demonstrates resilience when faced with the nightly routine of caring for siblings or withstanding loss upon loss upon loss in baseball games. Being mercied in a baseball game over and over can definitely help with the development of resilience. But it wasn't really until after I had a number of conversations with Kennedy in the work she leads at the UW Resilience Lab that I began as a head of school to see resilience from a systems perspective.
Megan Kennedy is the director of the UW Resilience Lab. As a leader and facilitator, she aims to build healthy and compassionate learning communities. She believes that building high quality wellness and educational programs requires teamwork at every level. Currently, Kennedy is developing and evaluating systems-based approaches to well-being that combines applied research, education, and collaborative programming across three University of Washington campuses.
This includes partnering with academic departments, student wellness groups, and community -based organizations seeking to deepen their capacity for mindfulness and resilience. My belief is this is all something we can learn from for independent schools; although we're not universities, we're certainly complex systems that care deeply about the well-being of children.
Hey, Megan, thanks for joining us. I'm super excited to talk to you about you and your work, but also the work of the Resilience Lab. And I know that those things are connected, really deeply connected. So just to start off, what's your story? How did you get to where you are? How did you become somebody that is super focused in on resilience?
Megan Kennedy: My career started working with young people, and early on I worked as a mental health counselor for young people and their families at a community-based organization in this region, this kind of greater Seattle, King County region. And I actually was working in the same sort of neighborhood that I grew up in, working with kids who went to the same schools that I had gone through myself. And then I was specifically honed in on working with young people who identified as part of the greater LGBTQIA community. Young people who wanted to talk about gender and sexual diversity and some of the experiences that they were having at home and at school and in the community related to their identities.
And over time, it became really apparent that a lot of what they were coping with had to do with the environments that they were in. It had to do with how things were at home, how things were at school, how things were at the community. And that was contributing to their anxiety and their stress or their experience of loneliness or depression. And so as a mental health therapist, I was interested in providing counseling in that kind of individual family or group format, but I became kind of more and more interested in how we start to situate interventions in more of like, a contextual way. I would think of it as like, more of a, like a systems-based way.
And so how can we actually activate different environments that folks spend time in, like the classroom environment or the school environment, for example, to support their mental health and well-being overall, particularly when it comes to underrepresented young people, people with multiple marginalized identities.
Morva McDonald: That's one of the things I was saying in the intro today, that in my conversations with you, one of the things I've gotten more clear about is not thinking about resilience as an individual attribute that somebody has, but as a part of something that's developed in the context of whatever their situation or their identities are and that that's a big soup, kind of, that's related to resilience. I love the phrase, how do you activate an environment, right?
Megan Kennedy: Yeah, I think that became really important to me, to think about how do we shift the onus of responsibility for mental health away from the young person, and think about how we can support the people that they're close to, like their parents or their family members or their teachers or their school administrators, to kind of be part of that, kind of share in the responsibility?
In a university setting, I've been looking at, so what is the mental health kind of reality of the students who are attending there? And one thing that I've noticed is that some of the mental health issues are related to the social environment. They have to do, particularly for underrepresented students. So they have to do with their experience of social isolation or lack of connectedness, feeling of imposter syndrome, feeling like, the impact of different microaggressions happening in the classroom.
And so for me, it translates into, whereas it's important to have the robust counseling services that we have at the institution, it's sort of not enough to rely on those to support the mental health issues, particularly because the issues are related to the social environment. So the intervention, part of our intervention at the university needs to be more environmental or contextual or systems-based in nature.
So I've been thinking about it in terms of our framework. If we think about our services in an educational institution existing along a continuum of care, the mental health counseling resources and our crisis intervention services that are more individual in nature have to be there. But there's, to be honest, quite a burden on those services at the college level. We see long wait times and the counseling center director at the university once said we could fill what we call like our University of Washington Tower, it's one of the big buildings on campus, with therapists and maybe not meet the need. So along this continuum of care, how do we situate some of our mental health strategies in a way that's more upstream or preventative in nature, that reaches more students and that focuses on building the type of resilience coping strategies that support them overall in coping with stress effectively.
Morva McDonald: Would you say that the individual resources and supports are necessary but not sufficient?
Megan Kennedy: They're absolutely necessary. Absolutely necessary. And as a mental health therapist, I still find great value in individual or relationship counseling or family counseling. But I think that there's ways that we can build a culture of well-being that helps promote the resilience of students and sort of like the organizational resilience overall that helps augment those services.
So my interest at the university has been thinking specifically about, OK, if we were to focus on the learning environment, for example, how do we help instructors teach in such a way where they would be supporting student well-being and flourishing, like a sense of connection? And so the interventions that we've been experimenting with in the resilience lab, I would describe them as like population-based, as being situated in the academic environment, and offsetting the other mental health resources that require students to go to them and get individual support.
Morva McDonald: In my own experience as a head of school, one of the things that a head of school has to do, particularly in an independent school, is because you're running an organization, is you have to think about the core work of schooling, which is teaching and learning. And you have to think about the core work of the organization, right? All of the back side.
So I'm interested in like from the resilience lab perspective, it seems to me, tell me if I'm wrong about this, that you're crossing between the really frontline support of teaching and learning, pedagogical ideas and supports around teaching and learning. I'm interested in hearing you talk a little bit about that. And then you're also working on the organizational systems side of how to develop the structures that allow that to be true. So can you give me like, in the examples on the teaching and learning side, right? Which heads of school are really paying attention to and care about at the same time as paying attention to the system on the teaching and learning side, like what are the examples that you are exploring, if you will, at the resilience lab?
Megan Kennedy: Yeah, so let me give you an example of our most recent initiative. We've recently, with the support of our vice provost at the university, we were invited to connect with instructors who are teaching our highest enrollment courses across our university system. So we have multiple campuses. So across these three campuses, we identified the instructors who are teaching courses that have the highest number of undergraduate students. Some of these instructors are teaching three to 400 students in an in-person setting. One of the instructors is teaching up to 1200 students in an online setting. So this is like a— large classes.
And what we're experimenting with is a set of five teaching interventions that we think would help promote student connection and flourishing, that are also to some degree could be kind of implemented in a simple way by instructors, not too arduous. So these are things, to give you an example, we have one that's referred to as the growth mindset reminder, reminding students that a big exam or a big assignment isn't necessarily a measure of their intelligence, but just kind of a check-in point about where they are in their process of learning. And it gives the student and the instructor more information about what needs to be focused on. And we have invited the instructors to provide that growth mindset reminder on their syllabus, as a statement that they say as they're passing out the exam, and then again, when they're passing out the scores and letting students know about their results. That's one example.
We have another example where instructors are using a set of slides, like PowerPoint slides to encourage students to turn and talk to their neighbor about like a question that's prompted on the slide, or there's an invitation other weeks for students to participate in a little mindfulness or contemplative practice that might help them take a moment to arrive to class and kind of get centered. Very invitational language, students could do it or not, it's up to them. But it flags to the student that the professor is interested in their presence and well-being overall.
Some of the slides point to different campus resources or community events. And altogether, this idea sort of, to me, it reminds me of sitting down at a movie theater and seeing like, you're kind of waiting passively for the movie to start and these different advertisements come up. And in this way, the advertisements to students flag that the professor cares and they give students more information about general well-being type things. So these are things that are fairly low lift, but could potentially make an impact, and we'll be studying and researching them to see. And that's the beauty of being at a research institution, is that we can do these interventions at a population level and then discern whether or not they make a difference.
Morva McDonald: It makes me think of something that's really striking here for me is that we often, I think we often correlate relational work as being both labor intensive and requiring kind of a small size. A few people, a few kids, right? A small classroom, a small number. And you're prompting me and I think maybe all of us to think about, What are the things in a larger context, whether that's the context of an entire school, right, or the context of a large classroom, whether that's 1,400 kids or, you know, maybe in some of our contexts, 50 kids perhaps, right? What are the low-lift things that are signaling, basically, I think that's what you're saying, right? They're signaling to the kids in this setting or the youth in this setting, the care.
I think that's such an interesting dimension, because I do think we get caught in this notion that this kind of work requires intense amounts of relational intensity and also just small numbers, small size, a lot of interaction.
Megan Kennedy: Yeah. I am looking forward to this intervention over, we're doing a two year pilot study and all said and done will reach about 20,000 undergraduate students, to your point, which is just like an incredible amount of students to think about having these messages of care and connection reflected by their instructors in these courses that are sort of notoriously, you know, sometimes challenging.
I remember I talked to an undergraduate student last spring, and he was describing his experience in some of these types of classes. And he was like, I'll turn to my neighbor on the right —This is a student who wanted to find connection. He wanted to chat with people. And he was like, I turned to my neighbor on the right and they would just, you know, have their earbuds in and be really not available, and I turned to my neighbor on the left and they would be like, i-messaging somebody on their computer or phone. And he's like, whereas I expected at the university to be able to have conversations in the milieu. He's like, I'm finding that I sit down in class and I don't know anybody and I don't talk to anybody. He's like, it's very different than what he was hoping for.
And so my hope is in these classes, we can inspire more of that connection and kind of bring back that connection. Cause that's such a huge piece of this issue around mental health.
Morva McDonald: So that's on the teaching, learning. pedagogy side, which one of the things I think is really beautiful about this is the relationship, building the relationship between the teaching and learning side and the system, right? And so talk to us a little bit about the systems approach, how you think about that, what are the features of that?
Megan Kennedy: Yeah, so one of the things that it includes to me, so I've done, I've actually thought a lot about the social and emotional learning movement that's happened in the K-12 system over the last 25, 30 years, and looked at that as a resource to universities and thought about, how do we extend that into, beyond 12th grade, into the experience for undergraduate and graduate students at the university? So essentially, how do we start to think about social and emotional learning in a university context?
And one of the lessons that I think was learned in the K-12 movement is that it's important that the quote unquote adults in the schoolhouse have the skills and mindsets that they're trying to teach the students. So those skills and mindsets that help us cope with stress effectively, manage emotions, have more interpersonal effectiveness, more compassion to self and others, et cetera.
And so part of the systems approach has been, well, how do we borrow from that kind of philosophy and start to teach staff and instructors across the university system these types of skills and mindsets, the emotional intelligence, so to speak, needed. Again, it's back to thinking about how for so long we've put the kind of onus of responsibility on individual students and then that burden even more so on underrepresented students. There's something about that lacks some dignity around that, where I'm like, actually, this is like something that we need to share responsibility.
And so I teach a lot of skills groups that are in partnership with a really wonderful center in our psychology department called the Center for Child and Family Well-being. And they authored a curriculum called Be Real, which is different than an app called Be Real that some people use. That's the mental health app. They had named it first and then the mental health app came out and we've noticed some people get a little confused.
But the Be Real curriculum is based in cognitive behavioral therapy, kind of skills and mindsets, dialectical behavioral therapy skills and mindsets, ideas like mindfulness, cognitive reframing, this concept from dialectical behavioral therapy called wise mind, radical acceptance. Some folks might be familiar with some of these ideas, and essentially they're really valuable concepts and skills to use to, again, to cope with stress, manage emotions, et cetera.
And we've created a six week program that we intended originally that we would offer to undergraduate students to help them with stress coping and then to feel more connected to others. And what we found is that it was really valuable to bring this program to staff and instructors so that they could learn those same skills and mindsets and then apply them in their direct work with students, in their instruction in class, but also with each other in organizational contexts, in staff meetings or supervisory roles. And to me, that's an example of the systems -based approach or creating a culture that is centering the value of these skills and mindsets and has a common language and is really kind of in a learning environment together around them. And then the students exist in that environment.
Morva McDonald: It's fascinating because in schools, as you know, I think even before COVID, but it became really highlighted during COVID, the demand, stress, the questions of mental health and well-being for teachers in schools…
Megan Kennedy: Yeah, it's one of the university president's major concerns right now, is the well -being of faculty and staff and experience of burnout. And so these skills and mindsets have a primary kind of effect on their own ability to cope with stress and cope, like have some resilience, both individual resilience and to build sort of team or organizational resilience in the work. Because oftentimes I'll teach these groups to organizations as a whole. For example, an entire school or college, or to a full team, so that they're learning these skills and mindsets in community. And then that gets reinforced in their like team meetings and in their relationships.
And if you can imagine that to scale, all of a sudden, you have all these schools and colleges across campus that have learned these skills and mindsets in community, and then that grows. But secondarily, we then taught these different staff and instructors how to facilitate the group. So then they can facilitate the group to students in their school or department, so that that responsibility isn't on the resilience lab or the Center for Child and Family Well-being, and that the students are then learning these skills and mindsets with folks who are within their context. So you have an engineering advisor teaching engineering students the skills and mindsets and they can talk about how it relates to their kind of, their world.
Morva McDonald: It becomes deeply integrated, right?
Megan Kennedy: Yeah, deeply integrated. And that's the same for students who might share similar cultural backgrounds. So all of our advisors in the college assistant migrant program teach these skills and mindsets to the group of students who are part of that program. And they can talk about it in a more culturally relevant way.
And so we've been studying, one, if non-clinicians can facilitate this group with the same kind of fidelity and impact that clinicians can, and we learned that they can. We've been studying the impact it has on staff and instructor well-being, because that's another interest of ours, as you were mentioning. And if staff and instructors can adapt the program to fit their needs, so it doesn't have to just be this rigid six-week program, but rather can flex to be four weeks or 11 weeks, over dinner, whatever they might want to do to make it fit their environment. And that's been so successful that we've been able to bring that program to about 30 universities across the United States in the last few years. And we're now researching if it has the same sort of impact on the other colleges and universities. And we're developing a youth program, which is kind of like the next step is, OK, and how do we adapt this for younger populations?
Morva McDonald: One of the things, one kind of not quite yet explicit, I don't think, but a little bit theme in some of the things that you're talking about are the differential experiences or impacts on kids that we might identify in kind of marginalized groups in our society, whether those are kids of color or whether those are kids that identify as lesbian or queer, part of the LGBTQIA community. Can you help us, as school folks, think about the ways that impact shows up differently for kids and the kinds of ways that you're exploring responding to that differently because of the experiences that kids in certain populations are having?
Megan Kennedy: Yeah. I mean, I think this is sort of my primary purpose, is trying to figure out how do we develop interventions that support students who are, I'll use the word underrepresented or marginalized.
Morva McDonald: It’s always tricky language, right?
Megan Kennedy: Yeah, and to do so in a way that— there's a few issues that I always am thinking about. One is just accessibility. So if the mental health interventions require students to…they're extracurricular. So they're not embedded in the school or the program, they require extra time or resources and aren't necessarily culturally relevant or connected to their different identities, then we have some issues.
And so we've known that this population of students have experienced barriers to care. And so part of the purpose of the resilience lab is, well, then how do we bring different skills and mindsets and strategies and support and care and connection to students in places they already are, which is the classroom or their school or college or environment or the ethnic cultural center or the LGBTQ center or the college assistant migrant program and so on and so forth. And so how do we just bring it there in a way that's meaningful? And how do we use their natural community members and mentors to help lead that work? Because it would be pretty ridiculous for someone like me to fly around campus and try to do it all.
And it also builds a system where you have, I've trained hundreds, literally maybe even close to a thousand staff and instructors to facilitate this group, and in these skills and mindsets. And so sort of like the scaffolding of folks who feel more competent and confident and comfortable teaching these skills and mindsets across campus is really developed. So anyhow, I think about access. I think what I was saying earlier around, it just makes sense that the intervention would happen in the social environment because that's where a lot of the issues are stemming from, the connection, the isolation, the imposter syndrome, et cetera.
Morva McDonald: Is it called out in the space that you were talking about in these large classrooms, and there are these strategies that are designed to express, I think, signal care for kids. In those strategies, are they also articulating anything specific around the identities of kids? This isn’t a very clear question, but I'm trying to get at the extent to which it's like, I bring the intervention, like if I were in a school, right, a K-12 school, let's say, I might bring that intervention into like a club, right? A school club or meeting. But if I were just in the general classroom, like I was in my advanced physics class at X high school, wherever that might be in the country, in that space, are these kinds of the reaching out to kids in particular communities, is that explicit or is it just that it's in the water, so to speak, of the context?
Megan Kennedy: I think it's, I think that internally within the Resilience lab, it's explicit in the way that we think about, loosely I'll say our theory of change, but I think to, I think to like, students or the general kind of campus population, it's more in the water.
Morva McDonald: When you're thinking about, one of the things I thought that will be great for the K-12 educators to hear in this podcast is that, here's this big research university who actually thought about what's going on in K-12. I thought, those are some really good ideas. We should try this maybe at the university. So I appreciate that as a K-12 educator. And so when you think about you're sitting in a university, you see lots of kids, you know kind of what their experiences are. If you were to give advice if you will, or maybe advice is too strong knowing you, but like think with us about the kinds of places we should start in K-12.
Many of our K-12 institutions have already started on this path, right? Even thinking about the insufficient but necessary requirements of having counselors in schools has been a tremendous change in the last probably, you know, five to 10 years. But if you were going to help us think about what we should be doing, kind of what would you say to us as K-12 educators?
Megan Kennedy: I love this question, and I think there's thoughts that I have about what I might say to K-12 educators, but I want to start actually with this idea that I've thought for a long time that it would be really interesting, maybe starting in this region, to connect the dots between what's happening in the K-12 system to what's happening at the university.
Now we know that not everybody in this region goes to the University of Washington, but we could still maybe explore this concept of how do we not just spiral up the social and emotional learning from kindergarten to 12th grade, but how do we actually extend that into the university? So what's happening in the K-12 system helps support students as they transition into college. And what we are teaching in college is really building off the skills and mindsets that the students have been learning kind of all the way up.
So I've spent some time in my career really interested in a collective impact approach. How do we work together around common issues and be working in a really aligned and coordinated way? So this idea of having the K-12 system and the university system more seamless around social emotional learning is, I think, a really interesting and cool opportunity.
At one point we invited some leaders from K-12 over to the UW, and started to have this conversation. There was a little bit of a back and forth, where the folks from the local high schools were like, you know, the university is putting a lot of pressure based on admissions and all this stuff on our students. And so a lot of what our students are experiencing has to do with what the university is expecting or requiring. Whereas the university was like, the students who are transitioning into our college, they need more skills and mindsets and they're really stressed. Can you map them? And so there's a little bit of finger pointing instead of thinking together. That was an initial conversation about how do we all sort of address what's underneath all of this at the same time.
I think that to answer your question, I think that what we're seeing at the university is that there's a lot of benefit in helping the adults in the school house, the staff and teachers understand these skills and mindsets. I think maybe we might overestimate people's knowledge of different really practical skills and mindsets that help them cope with stress. And in my experience, bringing these skills and mindsets to staff and instructors across the university, a lot of it is new. And people are really appreciative of having really practical ways that they can support themselves or support their own relationships at home or their own children at home or bring these skills and mindsets to their work at the university and relationships at the university. So I think that there's a lot of benefit in terms of getting at the culture piece.
Morva McDonald: Can you give me an example of what you mean when you say a skill or mindset that is maybe less familiar? What would that be? What does that sound like?
Megan Kennedy: Yeah, we start with teaching folks simply just about like our automatic stress response, like when a stress or a stimulus happens and our, that we have an opportunity to develop our awareness or consciousness of like the stress that's happening and being able to identify that. And then also be able to pause and bring some awareness or consciousness to the automatic reaction we're having, whether we go into fight or flight or freeze. And to be more aware of how our automatic stress response is triggered, and more familiar with those kinds of patterns and responses.
And in doing so, we start with just kind of you know, focusing on building awareness of our thoughts, of our feelings, of the sensations that happen, butterflies in your stomach, getting hot, heart beating, those types of things, becoming more familiar with just our reactions, our automatic reactions. And then from there, we teach folks how they can use that awareness to build in an opportunity or like a pause or space between the stress or the stimulus and the reaction. And so we provide just a really one size does not fit all approach. Here's just a ton of different things that you could do in that moment that might support you inbeing able to have a more, you know…just to maybe come to the situation in a way that's a little bit more balanced.
Morva McDonald: Yeah, that's really, it's a helpful example because I think it's the…As a school person, it's interesting. In supporting faculty and staff, you have to bridge the gap between an idea of something and like in the moment of teaching in a class with kids, you know, in which you're making, I don't don't know what, I can't remember what the research says, but it's something like, you know, 60 decisions a minute essentially, right? The pace of it is quite quick. The practical approach, the practical strategy, right, is so helpful. So it’s just great. It's great to have an example of what that could be, right, as a school leader to think about how, what kinds of things would I be supporting my faculty and staff to learn.
Megan Kennedy: Yeah. Another example that comes to mind that I was recently talking about with colleagues is the example of receiving an email from a colleague and you have your automatic set of reactions. Ugh, I can't believe what they're saying here. And you go maybe directly into hitting reply and starting to form your reply. And what we talk a lot about is what if we were to pause, and really check our assumptions about where the other person is coming from, what might be going on for the other person? What if we don't just automatically hit reply, but do what we tell kids to do, which is like take a minute, take some breaths, sleep on it, et cetera. Be curious. And then when you reread the email, it is really different than your first interpretation of it.
And so it invites people to again, kind of like pause and really maybe have a little bit more compassion or empathy or perspective on their colleagues. And that too, maybe that doesn't have a direct impact on a student one for one, but it has an impact on the environment as a whole. And I think that over time, that has an impact on students.
Morva McDonald: It's related to the culture of place, right?
Megan Kennedy: It's related to the culture of the place, yeah.
Morva McDonald: That's really fascinating, I think.
The interaction that you were highlighting, I think, between K-12 and the university system. And I have heard many K-12 people just say, you know, it's the stress of high school is being driven, right, by the demands of the university system, right? And I can also hear the university system, like, kids have got to show up with more skills and abilities and capacities.
I wonder if really, if we were to reframe that, and I think that's what you're after, is really thinking about the collective impacts as the approach. How do we work in synergy with each other across K-12 institutions and university institutions to reformulate what kids actually need socially and emotionally?
Megan Kennedy: Yeah, I don't suggest that that's an easy thing. Collective impact never is. But I think that on the table would be a lot of conversations about the competitive nature of things. And it's interesting that we're in a time where the need to be collaborative and work across differences and come to the table and be able to manage our emotions when we have different perspectives and different ideas, because the issues are really challenging, is more important than ever.
And so I have a lot of competing thoughts right now that I'm trying to get out to you. But I think one thing that all of us could be in service to, is how do we support students in being able to work together effectively to solve really difficult, challenging issues? Cause that's the type of skills they're going to need. And the skills and mindsets that I'm starting to allude to in this conversation are the types of skills and mindsets that we need to be able to work across difference, and to be able to have the type of holding environment that allows us to collaborate effectively on stressful stuff. And I think that there's room and a place for competition and you know, all of that—
Morva McDonald: —I know this about you because you're a runner. So I know that you have some inherent belief in competition, right, as sometimes helpful.
Megan Kennedy: Yeah, and I also, as a runner, hold the perspective of we also need to keep the long game in mind. We need to pace ourselves. As a runner, I spend a lot of time employing these different skills and mindsets to help me get through 26 miles.
But with the students, I think, there's a big opportunity for K-12 and for college settings to help students be able to have the individual resilience to be able to listen to other people's perspectives and ideas and to work on challenging situations that are going to take an incredible amount of time to work on.
Morva McDonald: For me, what you were just saying is a very optimistic and maybe needed stance about how we can help all of us move forward in a way that is able to not just see different perspectives, but actually engage and hold those different perspectives and realities, right? I think that's a very optimistic vision, and it's good to have an optimistic vision in a time where I think what we're facing is a lot of what Amanda Ripley might call high conflict, right? We're in kind of a high conflict culture right now, and helping us move through that and having resilience be central there seems really like a tremendous insight from that perspective.
I think there are so many, for me, just key takeaways around this collective impact notion, the thing that you're talking about related to the system and its relationship to the individual. And I really appreciate the work of the resilience lab focusing in on not just the system, but the way that that takes shape in the place of teaching and learning, and that a critical person in that role are faculty and staff.
And that's really, for me, kind of a heartwarming idea, to center faculty and staff at the intersection of the system and the individual kids in a place. So just thank you for that insight. Thank you for the work that you're doing. We're always looking forward to more connections with you and learning more.
Megan Kennedy: Thanks, Morva. This has been fun. Appreciate you.
Morva McDonald: Appreciate it. Thanks, Megan.