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Read the full transcript of Episode 43 of the NAIS New View EDU podcast, which features a conversation with Chris Lehmann, the founder of Educon, the Science Leadership Academy, and Inquiry Schools. Chris joins host Tim Fish to talk about his quest to create a fully inquiry-driven, human-centered learning model where citizenship and science shape the direction of the school.
Tim Fish: As our listeners know, the team at New View EDU is passionate about highlighting schools that unleash the power of students. Well, today I am overjoyed to introduce our community to an international leader in the design of agency-rich, authentic, purpose-driven schools. Chris Lehmann is the founding principal and CEO of the Science Leadership Academy, a network of inquiry-driven, project based public schools in Philadelphia, PA. SLA was named the Dell Center of Excellence for Technology in Education, and is considered a national model in the school 2.0 movement. Chris is coauthor of Building School 2.0, and in 2013, he co founded the nonprofit Inquiry Schools, to help schools create more empowering modern learning experiences.
You know, I first got to know Chris through his work leading the EDUCON Conference. This is an amazing educational experience that runs each year at the school. The conference is completely run by students, parents, community members and staff, and when I first attended I was struck by the number of international thought leaders who were there as attendees. People I would typically see on the keynote stage at big conferences were sitting on the floor with a bunch of educators, eating a turkey sandwich and talking about designing the schools we need. It is a powerful conference.
So let’s get to it with Chris Lehmann.
Chris, thank you so much for joining us on New View EDU. You know, your work at Science Leadership Academy has inspired me for years. I've been to EDUCON a few times, and every time, just could not believe how impactful it is to have students leading that conference.
Chris Lehmann: Thank you so much.
Tim Fish: Just want to start off by saying thank you for everything you've done for so many people.
And before we jump into a conversation about designing the school of the future, and to build on your great book, What School 2.0 Should Look Like, I would love to know a little more about you, about your journey as a student, as an educator. Like how did you end up in this spot, leading a school and getting it started?
Chris Lehmann: I think I ask myself that question every day. It's, you know, that's a big question, right? I, I think on some level, I think the first is that like, I was good at the game of school, but even when I was in, in school, you know, in high school or whatever, I recognized that it was a game. And I loved learning, but I quickly realized that there were teachers that I had who were encouraging me to learn, and there were teachers that I had that the game was there to be played, and it wasn't about the learning in many ways. You know, I did well in high school, got me into a good college, dah, dah, dah, dah. But I also was that kid who got in trouble in class because I was reading.
Tim Fish: Hmm.
Chris Lehmann: And again, I'm the son of a union lawyer and a classroom teacher, and learning and school and sort of discourse and like argue to learn and that sort of inquiry model of like, how do we dig into big ideas was, was prevalent in my home. And that was for me, you know, like really impactful. So I think on some level I always had this idea that like, as much as I loved learning and as much as I loved like an amazing classroom, I also recognized that there was a lot of classrooms that fell short of that. And, and as much as I was good at the game, I recognized that there were a lot of kids I knew, and a lot of my friends, who were very, very smart, but didn't play that game and didn't have the kind of success that I had in school, or didn't value school.
Like, and so for me, you know, went through college and did all the things and everybody's like, oh, you know, you're an English major. What are you going to do? You an English teacher? Ha ha ha. And I like, well, yes. Because you know, for me, I majored in English 'cause I remember sitting down with my 11th grade English teacher talking about like, what do I want to study? I don't know. I'm interested in all these different things. And he was like, look man, like I spent four good, I spent four years reading good books and talking about 'em. That didn't suck.
Tim Fish: Yeah.
Chris Lehmann: That kinda seemed like a really good thing. Then when I went into the classroom and I, you know, I worked for a few years out of college and then went back.
I, I really felt like at 22, if I went into teaching, I was going to burn out. I, I know myself, I’m a pretty passionate guy and I was smart enough to recognize when I was 22 years old that I didn't know how to say no. And not only that, but like, I actually, this is kind of a fun story. I was accepted into what I believe was the second cohort of Teach for America.
Tim Fish: Oh wow.
Chris Lehmann: And that was one of two job offers I had right out of college. The other one was working for a nonprofit organization making $15,000 a year. And so teaching was the lucrative job offer. But I didn't think I had anything to offer high school kids. They were going to put me in as a reading specialist in Brooklyn, and I was like, what do I have to offer these kids?
I don't know anything. And I'm just going to get eaten alive by this job because I have no perspective. And I knew that about myself, which was, I think, one of the moments of sort of clarity that I've looked back on my life and I'm like, oh, good job you. So I went and worked for the nonprofit. I wanted a little bit of distance between me and the kids I was going to serve, as far as my own maturity level and my own person-ness.
And so I worked for two years and then went to graduate school and then went into the classroom as an English teacher and technology teacher. And by then I felt like I'd learned enough that I had something to offer the kids. And I also knew enough about myself to know how to manage the, you know, really challenging, sort of rollercoaster that is the teaching life, especially teaching life in New York City, in Philadelphia, and in places where kids are walking in the door—and this is true everywhere, no matter where you teach, but certainly in our cities, kids are walking in the door with stuff, right? And I was the, you know, 25 year old white kid who grew up in the suburbs. And I don't think at 22 I had the emotional maturity or the distance or any of that. But at 25, one might argue that 25, I'm not sure I did either in retrospect, but I had just enough that I, I did not suck at the job and really fell in love with the classroom.
Fell in love with teaching. And was at a school that actually, I'm going back to their 30th reunion of the opening of the school on Saturday, which is exciting. But it was a new school, I got there when the first class were seniors, and I helped these two founders achieve their vision of the school.
And the really cool part about working in service of somebody else's vision and working at a new school, and working in New York in the sort of go-go nineties and early two thousands when startup was all the rage, both in education and in, you know, the sort of rest of the world. I had the opportunity to dream. Working at this other school that was a startup, that was somebody else's vision, it was about 80% of what I thought a school could be. It was 75%, somewhere in that range, and that last 25% was the loose tooth I could never stop wiggling. And I think if you go work in a traditional school that has been around for a million years or whatever, you're not dared to dream, oh, maybe you could start a school someday, but when you work for two school founders and you're working like, you know, literally helping to build the systems that would then sort of like, you know, prop up or sort of support the school, you're given license to dream.
And so I had this idea of starting a school that was fully inquiry driven and project based and technology infused and modern and caring. And it was the sort of experience of starting a school with two really amazing founders and this incredible group of teachers that I worked with. And people started saying to me like, oh, you're going to start a school someday.
And the cool thing is, is like when, like I said, when people give you that license to dream, you actually do so.
Tim Fish: Wow. So, so tell us more about the school you've created. I mean, you told us a little bit about it, but like, it's quite a place. It is quite a place. And like what does it, what does it feel like? And when you, when you walk around, Chris, and you walk up and down the hallways and you're like, ah, man, it's happening.
This is it. This is what it's supposed to be. What are you seeing? When it feels right, what's going on?
Chris Lehmann: Great question. I, I think, I think that's an important thing for all of us who actually are in the school every day, to remember that like more often than not, it does go right. Like it's interesting, final grades just came out and I was just sitting with a couple of my teacher leaders and we were looking at the grade span, and how kids did and all the rest of that stuff.
And overwhelmingly, kids did phenomenally well and we're really proud. And I made a point of saying to everybody, like, look at the grade distribution. We spend an incredible amount of our mental energy and time on the kids who we really, who need that extra layer of support, and we spend a lot of time with. And look at how many kids are thriving beyond our wildest imaginations. And so when we get frustrated, because I think it's very easy when you're doing the thing to see the hole, not the donut. And I think one of the things that I try to do as a leader, is give people, students and teachers alike, and parents and everybody, those step back moments where you get to say, like, oh, like yeah, the thing does work really, really well.
So what I see when it's going right, I mean like today was a great day. Like for example, as it so happens, today was Culture Day, which is a new tradition at SLA these kids just started this year. And a group of kids who are part of our students of color association said, we want to have a celebratory day. And we used to do something similar, not quite this expansive as what they just pulled off, years ago, pre pandemic. But of course, like many schools we're rebuilding a lot of traditions in the, you know, now as we're on the other, you know, sort of other side of all of what we've lived through. And they said, we want to do a day where we bring in parents and friends and whatever, and do all of these incredible culture day workshops and like, celebrate all of the rich culture, but not only to celebrate it, but also get the chance to teach a little bit about our cultures to other people.
So the kids planned the whole thing with, obviously teacher supervision and teacher support and all of that, but we had all the kids taking part in these Culture Day workshops today. And we had drum circles, we had storytelling and folktales. We had the history of hip hop. We had food. And then we had this incredible marketplace where kids came in and they were selling food from their cultures and things like that. And I am frightened to get on the scale tomorrow morning. We had salsa dancing, we had just amazing, amazing workshops.
All student led, all student run. Or like they were bringing in parents or friends or whatever, but they generated the whole day. And you can't do something like that if the first time they have the agency to own their education is this thing. Because then it's this clunky, clunky thing. But when kids have felt all along that they have agency, they have ownership, that this is their school and their education, and they, they are valued and valuable, then when they have the opportunity to plan something like this, they go, you know, to the nth degree.
Tim Fish: Just do it. And they know how to do it. And they, and I'm sure they bumped into walls along the way. I'm sure there were things that, you know, but, but they did it. Right. It's so funny, Chris, 'cause if you were to boil down this podcast, right, to a simple question, it has been: at this moment where we are now, what should be the purpose of school?
Like, why do we have it? And, I think you think deeply about this question, and I'm curious. What about, 'cause for me, like there's so much in that story you just told about Culture Day, about this, this sort of, this expression. When you walked around, when you saw the, the individual students, you talk about belonging, you talk about feeling like you're needed in a community. You talk about being seen and known, you can get this, I mean, this is what was there as well as the learning that was going on.
Chris Lehmann: That's right. Well, and understanding the activism of it as well. Right. Because like I was able to, at the end of the day, you know, in our auditorium as we did our sort of end of day celebration of all we had just done, I was able to stand in front of the school and say like, you know, A) celebrate all of the organizers and everybody and all this stuff. But I said also, you know, understand, in this country right now, the diversity of this community is rare, right? In fact, it's getting harder.
And in many, many places in this country, a day like today wouldn't happen. Couldn't happen, for any number of reasons. And therefore, if today was impactful for you, and I think it was, as I look out onto all of you, right, if today matters, if this matters, then you have an obligation to nurture it while you're here and build it in other places when you leave. And so when we talk about what is the purpose of education, and again, obviously for me it's a public education, but I think this, this has resonance in the independent schools world as well, to me, the first and most important thing that school should do is help students become fully actualized, fully realized citizens of their world, right?
And then you sort of break down all the component pieces of that, right? So like, I get super frustrated when people are like, school is about prepping kids for the, for the, you know.
Tim Fish: Right? Yep.
Chris Lehmann: Number one, we don't know what the heck that's going to look like in target of epic proportion, but two, economic independence is an incredibly important part of being a fully realized citizen, right? If you can't pay the rent, you got a problem.
But it's not the whole thing. And if you put it first, you get a very different set of answers, right? Because what we want in our workers, and not in all workplaces, but in many workplaces, we don't want a high degree of agency in, like a lot of bosses don't want a high degree of agency and a, and a high degree of ownership, and a high degree of critical thinking. They want people who follow their lead, right? Like, you got a bad, you know, McGregor boss and nah. So for me, when we say to citizenship and fully realized, fully actualized citizenry is the purpose of school, number one, we're, we're acknowledging a lot of things.
Number one, we're acknowledging that society needs an educated populace, right? That part of what you're doing in school is for you, because you've gotta be a fully realized citizen. But part of what we're doing is for the world, 'cause the world needs fully realized citizens, right? And I think all we gotta do is look at our political discourse in this country to realize how much that's lacking.
But number two is we're putting economics where it belongs, which is underneath citizen, right? Because if we say citizen, then yes, how you pay the rent, what you do with your working life, how you do something that is meaning, meaningful in your career does matter. But it matters on equal footing with the kind of consumer you are. The kind of parent you are, the kind of partner you are, the kind of neighbor you are, the kind of scholar you are, the kind of activist you are, and all of those things make up a citizen. And it doesn't privilege this like, the market needs more workers churn, over these other parts of who we are.
So when we say like, oh, we educate the whole person or the whole student or the whole child, and then you say, why? And it's like, because being a citizen requires the whole of ourselves. And now there's a reason for that. The world needs you to be fully actualized, to solve the problems of our world and to, to be fully engaged in that world.
For me it boils down to four words: thoughtful, wise, passionate, and kind. Right? And those are my north star. Like when people say like, what do you hope four years at SLA does for the kids?
I want their heads full of thought. I want them to have the wisdom to apply those thoughts in meaningful ways. I want them to have the passion to push through when the world tells 'em it cannot be done. And I want them to be kind because I think we need more of that in the world.
Tim Fish: If we take those four words, I love them. I think they're a wonderful bumper sticker for how to think about what we're really trying to do, what the purpose is.
And then Chris, I look at like, school, as we traditionally think of school, high school in particular. We traditionally think of high school and we think of the bell system and lots of kids and moving around and the bus and the da da da and the whole thing. And I think, OK, what about that designed experience, the way we architect it, is developing those four words?
Chris Lehmann: Very little is the answer.
Tim Fish: Very little in fact. And yet when I do work, I do a lot of work on strategy and I'm meeting with a board of trustees, or I'm meeting with a leadership team and I say at the end of the day, what's it all about? Why does this school exist? What is it that you're really trying to do?
And what I often hear is to build, very much like what you said, put good people in the world, people who are kind, people who are compassionate, people who will support others, people—often what I hear is less about individualism and more about thinking for others and with others, and being part of a community.
And then when I look at that experience, that's not what they do when I walk the halls. I mean, they're not bad. It's not bad. Good people doing good work for kids, care deeply about kids, but we're not intentional in that design. So what's it look like to design a school where those four words are developed through the experience?
Chris Lehmann: I mean, the easy answer is read my book, right? Building School 2.0: How to Create the Schools We Need, available on Amazon. But, you know, there's a lot of answers to that question. I mean, first is like, you know, one of the questions you always ask is like, these things can't happen by fiat.
Right? They can't happen like, because you hire a really caring teacher. The question becomes what are the systems and structures? So we can unpack any number of them. Let's look at this idea of kindness and this idea of the ethic of care. And again, we didn't invent this idea. Nor have we perfected as we are, like, you know, always a work in progress. But one of the core structures of SLA is advisory. An advisor is one teacher and 20 kids, and they stay together all four years, right? So every student that SLA knows who their advocate is. Who their first advocate. It doesn't preclude having other advocates. Like I coach the boys' Ultimate Frisbee team, and I love my boys a ton, and obviously I'm their advocate, like when they need stuff, but their first, it doesn't happen because a kid happens to play a sport or is the editor of the newspaper.
Every single child has an advocate. And those classes meet twice a week for about 45 minutes. It is everything from, you know, Turning those, you know, so like every teacher in this building is a frontline, like, sort of like low level sort of general stuff counselor, right? 'Cause they're dealing with the like, oh my God, I got in a fight with my mom, or my girlfriend and I just broke up, or blah, blah, blah.
And they're dealing with that stuff, right? And then one thing that does is that means our counselors have a little more time to dig deep when we've got kids who really are facing some challenging stuff. It also means if a kid is struggling with a teacher, right? ‘Cause you know, we ask teachers to navigate 125 relationships a day. We ask kids to navigate seven adult relationships or six adult relationships over the course of a semester or whatever. And that's hard. And you don't hit on all of them. But like, let's say, Tim, you were in, you know, the advisory of Ms. Manasian who just walked by my office to say goodbye, right? And you had me in class. You couldn't figure out what I was talking about. And you went to Ms. Manasian and you were like, yo, like Lehmann. I don't know what to do. I, no matter what I do in his class, I never seem to do what the guy wants me to do. Help.
And you know the first thing Ms. Manasian might do is say like, look, he's my colleague. Good guy, little quirky. Let me give you some strategies for working with Lehmann, 'cause I, because you're not the first kid I've had who's had him in class, right? Obviously. And so you go back, you try the strategies. I still, whatever, the relationship is tough. Now Ms. Manasian can actually call a meeting and sit down with you and me and her, where she is navigating that space and leveling that power dynamic playing field, where your voice and your experience in my class actually matters.
You know, she will create the space where you could be like, you know, Mr. Lehmann, no matter what I do, it seems like we're not connecting and you seem always mad at me and why? And you know, Ms. Manasian would create that space, and you would have to listen to what I say, like, well, you know, Tim, I mean like, seems like you have to go to the bathroom for 20 minutes class every day. It's a little frustrating. And you can say like, well, like, yeah, but you know, also like if you yell at me when I come back and it's not exactly, and you have those dialogues. Very, very human, very real, very honest dialogues. And you as a student are able to have it because there's an adult who knows you as a person navigating that with and for you. Right?
That's how you create a caring school. And if you do it in such a way that it's honest, which we always try to do. You end up moving a little because you understand better what I'm asking and what's frustrating me about having you in class. And I move a little because I have a better understanding of you as a student, and that, you know, advisor's able to navigate that space.
And the beautiful thing is every adult in this building has been on both sides of that equation. When we were the advisor helping one of our students, one of our advisees, navigate a challenging moment with a teacher, but we've also all been that challenging teacher. Well, there's no blame or shame here. It's not like, oh, Mr. Lehmann's a jerk because he won't work with Tim. It's a recognition of our shared humanity and a recognition of the challenging competing needs that teachers and students have when everybody's navigating a zillion relationships a day. But you create a core relationship that is deeper longitudinal, that can serve as that sort of anchor for a kid and serve to again, level the playing field and the rest of, and, and sort of really fundamentally shift that power dynamic that exists in these sort of traditional structure of schools.
Tim Fish: There's a whole lot that's going on in that advocacy, in that relationship that's built over those four years. And the part I also like about it, Chris, is that it's intentional, it's unwavering. It's something you say, we would never give that up, because that's so key to the work we do.
So one of the things I'm also interested in as we think about this is you all, I think you talked about it earlier, about giving students agency, and your point was that you can't just sort of do it one time and say, OK, now you have agency to run this thing and expect it to just happen.
You've gotta do it in small ways along the journey. What are some ways where, on a daily basis, students might feel that agency that then builds that to help them be able to design bigger things in the future?
Chris Lehmann: Sure. Well, and I think it's interesting, and this is something I try to actually do in my own language. We don't give anyone else agency, right? We as human beings, you have agency because you are a human, because you are alive, as do I. Now lots of institutions in our society, school being primary among them, take away agency. But what actually we try to do is not give students agency, but help them unlock their own.
Tim Fish: Love that.
Chris Lehmann: And I didn't come up with that language, by the way. I should cite Bud Hunt, Bud the Teacher, for those folks who know him on the Twitters. Bud was the first person I heard to describe it that way.
Tim Fish: I love that. And you know, I've said give agency for years and I think it would be Unlock agency. It would be Empower Agency. It would be–
Chris Lehmann: –Even empowering, 'cause that's actually the conversation he and I had. 'Cause I used to say empowering all the time, and he was like, that's still you assuming that you've gotta give that to them.
Tim Fish: Yes.
Chris Lehmann: And so that notion of unlocking agency is a recognition of what we all sort of have because we are human.
And then much of the sort of apparatus of society kind of hides from us or takes away from us or what have you. So, and you know, you still use, I mean we, empower's a good word, so we–
Tim Fish: –I know, but I like unlock. I love it.
Chris Lehmann: And that's all Bud Hunt, so thanks, Bud.
Tim Fish: Thanks, Bud.
Chris Lehmann: So there's lots of ways you can unlock agency, right?And everything from like you know, where is the space in a project…well, let's back up. Number one, the idea of the core values, right? Inquiry, research, collaboration, presentation, reflection. This iterative cycle of learning that we do here, that starts with the big questions we ask, dares kids to, to seek out answers, work together to make those answers better, to create artifacts of their learning, and then to genuinely have those step back moments to say like, what is the thing I just did and, and how does that affect me? What did I learn? What do I think? Like all these things.
Like so that in and of itself is an sort of agency rich, I suppose, way to learn, right? That we can ask big questions together, right? As opposed to I am teacher, I have information, you are student, I give you information, you, student regurgitate the information I have given to you back to me so I can validate myself and give you a grade.
So one is that very notion of how do you ask big questions, right? And, and what do these questions mean and how do we do this? And, and how do I help you learn how to really ask those critical questions and then seek out those answers, right? And again, that's a really important thing, like seek out answers, not quiz me on what I already know as teacher so I can just impart it to you, but rather how do I seek out answers in the world that may or may not be the answers you, teacher, have?
So I think that's a, I think that is that very iterative model of the inquiry driven education that we have, I think in and of itself is built on helping kids to tap into that agency, right? And to learn how to harness it to, to get better at it, to really be a full learner, not just for learning's sake, but understanding that this learning that I'm doing actually matters in the world, and I can be an active agent in my world.
Tim Fish: Yeah, well, you know, we had Mary Helen Immordino-Yang on a little while ago, and she's a neuroscientist from USC, and what she talked about was the, her research is around the inseparable relationship between cognition and emotion. Literally, you cannot learn about something that you don't care about, that you do not, that you are not connected to in some way.
And so much of what I think your model does is it creates that connection. It brings me in. That's what this unlocking agency does, is it invites me, as we talked about before, to bring my voice to the table.
Chris Lehmann: And to figure out the why. And then when you marry that with this idea of like, this idea of like, everything is towards helping you become a fully actualized citizen, then, one of the basic questions is like, why do I need to know this?
If a high school science education does not help students understand fundamentally that the way in which they live their lives, the products they buy, the kind of house they build or live in, you know, the way they use power, the car they drive, that all of these things have a profound impact on our world, right? Then you have failed children. Because the ability to apply a scientific lens to the choices we make every day as human beings is a fundamental part of being a citizen. And I don't say that just because we're Science Leadership Academy, but because I think like science is, in the American, and it's not just America, but in the high school milieu, science is criminally undervalued. We just went through a pandemic. I think we saw what happens when you have a society that undervalues why learning science matters and how being able to apply those ideas and that knowledge and that content and those questions to the challenges we face in our world. How if you don't have that, you are not making good choices for yourself or others.
Why read Hamlet, right? Like, we don't read Hamlet because Shakespeare is beautiful and I love Shakespeare, like I love Shakespeare. But we read Hamlet because if you are a 15-year-old kid trying to figure out who you are as separate from the ideas and hopes and dreams of your parents, and you can understand that you are swimming in thousand year old waters, and that this dude who's been dead for 600 years had something to offer you in that question that helps you answer those questions for yourself. Like, cool, and iambic pentameter. Yay! But more importantly, the fundamental questions of the texts we read, be they 500 years old, or you know, Elizabeth Acevedo's Poet X, you know, they help us become better.
If teachers don't understand that the reason we read these texts is to find those questions that matter to kids and show the mirrors of the world, that these questions have been asked for a long time and smart people have grappled with them and that they get to grapple with them too. Then we do a disservice to children. I mean, yes, we read 'cause language is beautiful and wonderful and I'm an English teacher and I love language, but we read because it gives us insight into the human condition and this incredible journey we've been on forever, and that we are part of that journey. And the questions we ask and the struggles we have are struggles that others have had before us, and that their answers can inform ours, and that's cool.
Tim Fish: That is cool. And you know, for me it's also another piece, Chris, the way you just told that story, it's, I'm not alone. I'm not alone. I'm not alone in this community, and I'm not alone in this body that is 16 years old that's trying to figure out who I am, that other people have been at the same place I am.
And there's a world of wonder for me, I was a science guy, and science was about wonder. Science was about exploration. It was about finding something new. As we continue on, I'm going to switch gears for a second because not only are you a founder and leader of an incredible school that is doing the work we just talked about, you are also a leader of a staff.
And you are a principal and you're dealing with all the stuff that a principal deals with every day. So I'm curious, a lot of people who are listening to this podcast who are currently in a similar role or aspire one day to be in a similar role, what advice do you have or thoughts do you have about leadership?
Chris Lehmann: Stay in the classroom as long as you possibly can. Good God!
Yeah, no, I mean there’s a lot, right? I think number one you know, one of the things that we talk about is this idea of Be One School, right? So I can't want one thing for my students and not want the same thing for my teachers, right? So we believe in an inquiry driven model of learning for the kids, then our PD has gotta be inquiry driven. If I want teachers to care for children, then I have to care for my teachers. Right?
And it's funny, like I literally, my roster, like, so grades were due at 5:00 PM yesterday, and of course, you know, not every person met the deadline. And my roster chair, who's unbelievable and is a just like, he's a phenomenal human being, but also just analytical brain ability to sort of, and, and is always willing to take on the work and does everything and is incredible.
And he came into my office to vent to me today because of course a couple people didn't do it. Andhe came in to vent and we talked about it and he said to me, he was like, why is it that every year we say the same things and every year there's a couple faculty members who don't get it and whatever.
And he's like, when do we get to stop telling that, saying these things? And I said, you don't. It's the forever lesson. Right? And I said, because we built a school, like if this was a command and control school where everybody met the deadline, we'd never get the creativity and the funkiness and the, and the understanding that kids weren't going to hit the deadline sometime. And we wanted teachers to be able to like, forgive them. And so we have to forgive when our colleagues don't and dah, dah, dah. And that's so like, we could build a school where the most important thing was nailing the deadline, but we wouldn't get the creativity and the passion and the ideas and the sort of like forgiveness and the care.
Now the problem with that is that you can occasionally feel crappy when you feel like you're getting taken advantage of. But you have to remind yourself that we make an active choice to be this school. And so we're always going to seek to mitigate, we're always going to seek to help people be their best selves and to not miss deadlines and all the rest of it, but that piece of the puzzle is endemic to who we are.
Tim Fish: That's right. That's right. I love that you say, you start with this notion of we're going to be one school. And what we believe and live every day for our students, we're going to believe and live every day for our staff.
You know, one of the things I hear about a lot is this idea that, like the next generation of teachers, right? That this sort of, the, what we're seeing is a shortage of folks who want to go into education. But Chris, I'm curious about what is, how do we create the environments that are going to attract and retain that next generation of those people that have the kind of impact on our students that you're talking about? Because I'm a huge believer, while I think the role of teacher is changing, I don't think there's ever been a more important time to fill our schools with amazing people, amazing teachers. So, so what? How do you go about it?
Chris Lehmann: This is a moment where all of us who care about school, irrespective of sector, need to understand that this profession needs to be valued. That's number one. Number two, this has to be a sustainable job. And we need to be clear about what we can and cannot offer.
The parent who says I expect four meetings a week with my child's teachers because I want blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like this notion, it almost gets like, you know, something you referenced earlier about this idea of like the individual versus, you know, in contrast or conflict with the collective.
I literally just had to write an email recently where I said to a parent, like, you need to understand that what a teacher is telling you is what they can reasonably offer given the size of their caseload. And I'm asking you to respect this teacher. So on some level there has to be a, a reminder of what school is. And that school serves two purposes. It serves the individual student, which it absolutely does, but it also serves the larger society. And if we treat it as merely like, I want my child to get the whole pie, that's a problem.
So when we think about, attract is the big societal thing. We gotta stop demonizing teachers in schools, period. Retain is creating sustainable pathways for people, right? Creating sustainable lives. Not expecting that people have to be a 70 hour a week teacher to be effective. Right? Like how does, and and I don't think 40 is going to get us there. I have to admit that, at least not in the public sector where like, a teacher is going to have 120 kids, you know, on their academic caseload. But I think 50 should. And, you know, how do we make the job sustainable and workable and doable?
How do we share ideas, share processes, share frameworks, so that way we're not all reinventing the wheel anymore, and there are these shared languages and shared ways to interact so that within a school building we are leveraging a pedagogical efficiency that allows us to get to the most important parts of the work the quickest? And that's true for both students and teachers? And parents?
And then how are we creating caring institutions that people feel cared for and valued? And people feel like they matter, and teachers don't feel like they're on that grind? And all that's really, really hard, especially in a moment of public funding and all the things and yada, dah, dah, especially in a moment of sort of societal brokenness. I don't know a single educator right now, like literally, I don't know one educator right now who doesn't feel that the mental health challenges that we are seeing—students, adults, doesn't matter.
That like we are, we are not OK. Right? Like not just in education, but like, the world is not OK. And all of that comes in our doors, and we're still expected to teach.
And so how do you recognize that moment? How do you honor the moment and still get the work done, but also not fry people, burn people out, like all those things. Those are really hard questions, right? Because there's not a great answer. I, I genuinely don't know what to do when you get a parent, you know, like who says, and this is, and I say this with utter empathy. My kid is in and out of placement, right? For mental health. And I still want them to get straight A's. And you're like, I…(frustrated sound).
Tim Fish: Yeah.
Chris Lehmann: And I get it. But to me, the human thing is to say, look, we're never going to fail your child. We're going to do everything we can. We're going to move mountains for your kid. But also if school's not the most important thing in their life right now, because right now they're like, struggling with a profound mental crisis that has them, you know, in outpatient services or inpatient.
How do we set thoughtful, reasonable goals that allow your kid to do the work, to keep growing? Or even like is, you know, like we had to say this a couple years ago, like where we said to a parent whose kid was going through this major health crisis, right? Serious, real, you know, hospitalization, health crisis.
And I finally said to the parent, I don't care if your child graduates in five years. Because I don't know how to honor who your child is as a student when there's no way I want them even thinking about grades or classes right now. And if we're transactional, we push them through because we push them forward.
If we care, we say take five!
Tim Fish: Yeah.
Chris Lehmann: You got the rest of your life to work!
Tim Fish: Chris, I don't think we say that enough. I think the fifth year could be something for a lot of kids too.
Chris Lehmann: And not if it's punitive.
Tim Fish: No, no, no. Not at all. Yeah,
Chris Lehmann: It's saying you spent four months hospitalized, why in God's name am I going to pile on a bunch of work to give you a grade in something that you're not going to learn in depth? Because you can't. It's not your focus. That's OK. So take a mulligan.
That's the most caring thing I can do for you.
Tim Fish: That's right. That's an incredible thought. You know, as we, Chris, this has been an awesome conversation, and your insights and wisdom are so, so spot on. You know, I'm curious about, what is it, that as we think about this, the one hope you have, the one wish you have for sort of education generally.
Chris Lehmann: Oh my goodness. The one hope I have. The one hope I have is that societally, we revalue it. I can't think about the question absent the context in which I work, right? We need a, a, you know, a new deal in public education, where we replace old buildings, where we revitalize old buildings, we spend the money. We need to revalue education and stop thinking that teachers can play every role all the time for every, you know, and create smarter, healthier systems that allow students to feel valued, that allow teachers to feel valued.
We need a refocusing on pedagogy. Where we start to say, what does it mean to teach in this moment in time, and how do we do all these things? And how do we do them in a way that recognizes like in a moment where we've got cell phones and this and TikTok and yada da social, that the demands on our attention, the immediacy of the moment where everything is about the hot take. What school does is slow down.
Tim Fish: Yeah.
Chris Lehmann: What school does is ask kids to be contemplative. What school does is ask kids to genuinely take the time to learn. And how do we understand that that is an urgent need but not urgent in the way that we see schools operating now, where it's just as fast, but rather how do we revalue this?
And help kids to live in a world that is going to move at a faster and faster pace by being able to critically analyze, to think, to question, to create, and to really see themselves in this world, not at a breakneck speed, but rather to have the time to be, again, thoughtful, wise, passionate.
Tim Fish: I love it. Chris, have you heard of the slow food movement? Right? I think, I think we've got a new one. I'm going to call it, I'm going to call it slow school. And, and I think that's what, that's what we need, right? We need to take the time to prepare the meal in a beautiful way, right? In the same thing. We need to take the time to prepare students in a beautiful way.
And that is, to unlock that agency, as you said, which I'll keep coming back to. Chris, thank you so much for taking the time with our listeners today. I really appreciate it.
Chris Lehmann: My pleasure. Absolutely. Let's all have a great school year.