Read the full transcript of Episode 47 of the NAIS New View EDU podcast, which features doctor, researcher, and author Shimi Kang joining host Tim Fish for a discussion about her latest areas of focus, and how understanding the wisdom contained in our bodies can help us navigate technology in the classroom.
Tim Fish: The well-being of our students and staff is a top priority for school leaders. We live in complex times full of challenges and opportunities. And things are only continuing to change more rapidly than ever before!
We've talked a lot recently about new innovations like ChatGPT and other technological advances that are having a big impact on education, and on students, right now. To help us make sense of it all, I am overjoyed to welcome Dr. Shimi Kang back to our studio.
Shimi is an award-winning Harvard-trained psychiatrist, best-selling author, keynote speaker and professor at the University of British Columbia. She is the founder of Future-Ready Minds, co-founder of the Get Sparky digital platform, and host of the YouTube series, Mental Wealth.
Through these mediums, she provides social, emotional, cognitive, and mental health skills for children and adults around the world.
As a result of her outstanding community service, Dr. Kang has received five national awards in the field of mental health, in addition to the YWCA Women of Distinction and Governor General Award. She is also the proud mom of three “awesome yet exhausting” teenagers! I hope you enjoy this conversation with Dr. Kang.
Shimi, thank you so much for joining us once again on New View EDU. Our first conversation was a huge hit with our listeners. And when we were planning season five, we knew we needed to welcome you back to get more of your insights on how we think about well-being and belonging in our schools. So thanks so much for agreeing to spend some more time in the studio!
Shimi Kang: Thank you for having me. I always love being here.
Tim Fish: So what have you been up to since our last conversation? You know, when we last talked, there was no Chat GPT, at least that we knew of. So things sure have changed in the world. I'm curious, what's been going on in your world?
Shimi Kang: Yes, thanks, Tim. Well, as you know, I'm a psychiatrist. So sadly, I'm very busy, you know, with the mental health crisis we're seeing in schools and young people and college campuses. So continuing to see and follow those trends. And yes, the big news was Chat GPT. And you know, I had researched the impact of technology on the brain, body, and behavior through the research of the book, The Tech Solution, which we spoke about.
Tim Fish: Yeah.
Shimi Kang: And at that time, ChatGPT wasn't here. And I think what I am now going further and there's so much to talk about, and I'll just quickly give you a sense of what we're experiencing in the research area. Our first contact with AI, social media, let's say, we heard words like doom scrolling, FOMO, you know, even addiction in terms of the internet.
The industry, the tech industry, was kind of motivated by what was called a race to the bottom of the brainstem. And what that meant was the business model was to hook the attention and hold that attention. And that was our first experience with social media. Now the industry, what it's being called with this second contact with AI, this new AI, is the race to intimacy. And what I mean by that is, not just hooking and getting our attention, but keeping it through a very intimate relationship. So for example, very sadly, let's say, now gender is not binary, but you know, boys and young men are really resonating with a huge influencer, I don't even like to mention his name, but he's got like 14 billion views. And you know, spreading hate against girls and women.
So that's a race to intimacy, where the algorithms are going to be there for these young people to connect with. And my patients tell me that they, he gets them more than other, even their fathers or uncles or coaches. Also, we're going to see in things like Snapchat, the AI bots being able to predict, like let's say my daughter Gia is on Snapchat, her AI bot, who she may give the name Nellie, will predict to ask her, how was your day, Gia? What was volleyball like? What happened in school? In a voice, in a tone, with imagery that she wants to see. So that's what I mean about a race to intimacy, most intimate relationships. This is where we're headed and it is really big news.
Tim Fish: Wow, wow. So it reminds me of that movie, Her, right? With, where you essentially develop a relationship with your operating system or with an AI.
And the thing is, we're not that, we are not far away from that at all, right? I saw an article recently, it might've been in Wired Magazine, where they were talking about now there are AI driven therapists, right? That will...that you interact with in the same way you would a therapist who listens to you. It's all chat-based or text-based at this point. But I imagine very quickly it's going to be much more voice-based. Are you seeing that in your industry as well?
Shimi Kang: Yeah, I would say, to your first point and the movie Her, like we're already seeing that in Japan. You know, with the birth rate plummeting, and I think I mentioned the term hikikomoro, which is the idea of shut-ins. They're having a very hard time getting young people to actually go out, meet each other, see each other, procreate, and get their birth rate up because of internet addiction, gaming addiction, people being able to feel more comfortable with their bots and whatever they're doing online.
So we're definitely seeing that in the therapy world. I think there will be some advantages, just like in education, with using AI to help with manualized aspects, but nothing can replace that human interaction at all. The mirror neurons in our brain, those centers of empathy do not fire with robots the same way, or at all yet, that we know of as humans. And really importantly, AI does not have ethics yet. It doesn't have a sense of that judgment, that human judgment. It doesn't have humor, you know, certain aspects that are so essential to that human connection.
But we're in a whole wild west right now, and I think it's such an important topic to really understand how it's going to impact. Again, tech is like fire, right? The fire of our time. We use it well, we will go further and farther than ever before. If we don't, we'll get burnt and burn down that village.
Tim Fish: Oh man, and you know, that is something I think we have to be conscious of. And I know you and I have talked in the past about this idea of sort of how tech should be present in schools, and how tech in its presence in schools, or any of these things, can really contribute to well-being in other ways that they can't. Your notion, we talked about a lot in our last episode, was healthy tech and what healthy tech looks like.
You know, one of the things I'm curious about, as we're back to school for the fall. I'm curious about, as we walk around hallways. This idea came up to me as I was preparing for this. What if we did, if you came into a school, imagine a 600 student, kindergarten through 12th grade independent school, and you were going to be there for a day or so, and you decided to go on a well-being walk. You decided to kind of walk around the school, any school. What would be the things you would look for in that school that would give you a sense that there's good development of well-being in the school? And what would be the things you would look for that would say, hmm, there's areas of concern here, maybe that we should be tapping in on?
Shimi Kang: Wow, what a great question. And it's like a bit of a utopia, right? So, I mean, I would revert back to one of your previous episodes where you had interviewed some students, I think from the One Stone School in Idaho.
Tim Fish: Yeah, that was a great conversation.
Shimi Kang: Yeah, and it was so amazing that these students were on the board of the school. It was a collaborative school. So to me, that would be the first thing I would love to see, is a school that wasn't top down, admin, teachers, students, passively, or even partly actively learning, but fully integrated from all levels of admin, education.
And so I would think, I'd go back to that. And I think when I heard that episode, that was the first thing. I'm like, this is the school of the future. In addition, everything from natural sunlight, having nature. So again, if we look at three rising trends in the well-being space. It's burnout and stress, number one. Number two, disconnection and loneliness. And number three, anxiety and perfectionism.
So these can all be mitigated with some simple, but I say not easy, simple is not easy, solutions. So from a well-being point of view, nature, natural sunlight, windows, fresh air, time outside, any outdoor space, now I know that's a resource issue, but on one hand, all over the world, we're seeing fully outdoor classrooms with no walls. So, you know, in national parks.
Water, basic water, 60-70% of kids are dehydrated, so are teachers. You know, so less sugary drinks, less coffee, more water. And everything to now the collaborative classroom, the shoulder to shoulder. If you remember in one of my first books, I introduced the research around the most motivating relationship style. It's not the authoritarian, that shark, that tiger, that snowplow, strict teacher, but it's also not that jellyfish, that passive permissive, you know, you guys do your own thing, you'll figure it all out. It's that middle place, that dolphin, that firm expectations, rules. But with that collaborative, adaptable approach.
So, you know, we could talk about brick and mortar aspects, and then the essence of the 21st century classroom, building those CQ skills. That's the goal, the creativity, the collaboration, the communication, the critical thinking, and above all that contribution, your human purpose in a world of automation and outsourcing. That is the greatest value we can bring.
So there's so much in that question. And really quickly, I'd love to see no phones in the hallways and in the social areas, but really robust technology, including AI and robotics and coding, in the classrooms.
Tim Fish: Yeah, so it's not a tech-free zone. It's not that there's no tech, right? But again, it's like, is it being used in those productive ways? Is it being used for creativity, like you talked about? Is it being used for communication? Is it being used for connection, right? Or is it junk food? And what you're saying is, let's get the junk food out. Let's get the sugary drinks out. Let's get the junk food out. Let's get in air. Let's get in nature. Let's get kids connecting. And what I love, also, is the well-being comes when that student feels that he or she is making a contribution to the school. This notion that we've talked about, I'm seen, known and needed in the community. And that's what we picked up with those students, Ella and Mackenzie, when we talked with them, they were needed on a daily basis in school.
So the well-being walk is not just kids with their heads on the desks, or kids in crisis, but there's subtle things that we can do in our communities to build that sense of well-being, right?
Shimi Kang: Absolutely. Yeah, the biggest motivation that, you know, people talk all about how do we motivate kids? Well, first of all, there's no such thing as an unmotivated kid. But if you're sleep deprived, stressed, over burnt out from over scheduling, you're not going to be motivated. If you're disconnected on social media, or not, or hyper competitive and don't have a sense of meaningful connection, you're not going to be motivated because the biggest motivation comes from a sense of contribution and being needed.
You know, in the end of the day, we all want to ask ourselves, what was my impact on this world, whether it's in a small or large way? I always talk about my own mom, who wasn't an educator, never went to school, not even one day, she has no formal education, but her one question to me was, what did you do in your day? Meaning, how did you contribute in a small or large way? Did you pass out a pencil? Did you pick up garbage? Did you help a kid with their textbooks?
And as I grew, bigger and bigger expectations for contribution, that's the inside. So we want to build that inside, that sense of purpose, that sense of mission, that sense that you're needed, not the outside, right? All the accolades, awards, the grades, nothing wrong with any of that. But we have to get the focus. Where focus goes, neurons grow. We want that focus on character, purpose, meaning, mission.
Tim Fish: Yes, that's what, that's what you know, Ella said in that episode that you referenced, right? She said, when we were talking about grades, she said, before I came to One Stone – where they have no grades – she said, my grades defined me. My identity was tied to my grades. Right. And now my identity is tied to me. Right. Which I think is such a powerful statement.
You know, it gets to this idea that one of the things I've noticed, and I think you and I spoke about this a little bit before, but I’d love your thinking on it now. Is this idea, because we've been talking a lot in this season about struggle, about productive struggle around this idea of discomfort, right? I used to always say when I was teaching, what I called the blessing of angst, right? Creating a supportive environment where students were sitting in that angst. They were trying to find out that thing. They were trying to work that problem. They were trying to write that story. They were trying to find their language. They were preparing for something, and they were a little nervous about it. They were a little bit, they had the challenge, they could feel the challenge, but yet they also had control and choice. They were invested in the challenge, right?
And so for me, like I'm, yeah, I'm all pro struggle. I'm pro challenge, right? But what I'm not pro is soul crushing stress. And I know you've written about this and talk about this. So help me understand that, because I think in our schools, we need to embrace fully what challenge can bring, what ambition can bring, and at the same time, be communities that are promoting well-being.
Shimi Kang: Yeah, absolutely. And there's no contradiction there at all. We are well when we are challenged. And I'll give you the brain science behind that. In a lot of my workshops and keynotes, I have a slide that has an image of two brains. And then there's a highlight in terms of what part of the brain is being affected. Under the state of stress, that brain stem, that amygdala, that freeze, fight or flight response that modulates adrenaline and cortisol and all the things we don't want, is lit up. Just a very small region in the brain stem.
When the other part is a brain under challenge, when we are challenged, when there's some adversity, when we're stretching ourselves and learning and growing, the entire cortex, the entire top part of the brain that is responsible for our learning, our sense of judgment, our curiosity, releases really powerful molecules like serotonin for confidence and mastery, oxytocin, which is our connection and trust, endorphin, dopamine, the list goes on, is all lit up. And like I said, the greatest high we can get naturally is called the helper's high. The helper's high gives us all of those molecules I mentioned, plus things like brain derived growth factor. I mean, who doesn't want that, when you really think about it? I don't know anyone who's helped someone and walks away feeling sad. You know, we help someone, we have a spring in our step, we feel joyful. And doing it, if I could say, challenging yourself– and what I wrote about in The Self-Motivated Kid– is we are a neural, we have a neural fingerprint.
So contribution and challenge is different for everybody. You know, for me, you know, I don't want to cook, let's say, you know, in, you know, in a transition house, because I'm not good at cooking. But what I would love to do if I were to go in an underserved area is teach about the brain. That would light me up. Someone else would want to maybe build a house or build some chairs. Another person would want to educate or read a book. Someone would want to give money. Someone would want to do their marketing for them. I don't know, but we really got to think about that match of what lights us up, what challenges us, what we love to do, and how do we apply that to the world in a state of contribution? That's our road to that mission, well-being, that highest potential that we're born to really fulfill.
Tim Fish: And so it's that notion, the helper's high, right? It's that notion of when I am working in the service of others. That's where that comes in, right? That notion of when I'm, back to that word, contributing.
Shimi Kang: Absolutely. Yeah. And I would add contributing in your own unique way.
Tim Fish: And in your way, right, in your unique way. I read this book once on volunteerism and they talked about these two different organizations. One couldn't get any volunteers to save their life and the other was thriving, had tons of volunteers coming. And it was all about how they went about the volunteer process. In one organization, when you said you wanted to volunteer, they were like, well, you gotta fill out this form. We only have volunteers on Mondays and Tuesdays. Volunteers who come have to do this job, this job or this job.
You know, ba ba ba ba, a very structured approach, right? The other organization was like, yeah, come on in. Like, what do you want to do? How would you like to hang out? How would you like to help? And whatever the person said, they would say, why don't you do that for an hour? And then they said, hey, maybe come back. And they really made it all about what the volunteer wanted to bring to the table, right? And they were thriving. And that's what I'm hearing you say, is this notion of, again, back to that notion of agency, back to that notion of choice, right? And this notion of contribution.
So I'm curious, as we talk about all this, as we talk about getting that right balance of these neurochemicals, you are so famous for your work around future ready brains, right? And so we're talking now about the creation of the future ready brain, what school can look like to create those brains for the future. What kinds of things would you also want to see happening in schools that are committed to neurologically developing future ready brains?
Shimi Kang: Yeah, love that question. I'd love to see what's called a neuro education because you know, when the school system began, we didn't have the neuroscience. You know, we were trying our best, but now we have it. So let's use it. First of all, I like to say, we don't just have one brain in our head. We have what's called a disseminated human intelligence system.
So we have intelligence in the palm of our hand. If you feel your hand, it's highly intelligent, sensory. So I think the best, simplest way is, I boiled it down to three main centers of intelligence, our three brains. People remember threes. So we have a center of intelligence in our guts, the gut brain. This is where primal emotions of fear, stress are. That's why little kids get butterflies, or we throw up before a big test.
So to honor and maximize that brain, we need wellness practices. We need schools that have emotional learning, breathing, mindfulness, gratitude practice, time in nature, really understanding self-regulation. Because if that brain's happy, now we can move into the next hierarchy of human intelligence, which is the brain in our heart. The brain in our heart, we have neurons in our heart that are intelligent for our social relationships. If we are disconnected, our heart releases adrenaline, makes us super anxious, even have a panic attack. We feel like, really unwell if we're lonely and disconnected. That's why loneliness, disconnection is the next major health epidemic in the world.
So a school that honors that heart brain, that works on social connection, seeing each other, looking at each other. That's why no phones in the hallways and social areas. And really building that sense of belonging and community. And then now you're in the place where you can tap into that head brain, that brain of innovation and adaptability. But that brain doesn't like that structured learning as much, as you said, Tim. It likes a balance of expectation, rules. It doesn't want chaos, but it also wants the ability to play, meaning learn from trial and error. Try new things. Be curious. Stretch that imagination.
So those are the three brains, and what's beautiful about it, they build resilience. Our gut brain, which mitigates that trend of burnout and stress, it builds connection and collaboration, which mitigates that trend of loneliness and it builds adaptability and innovation, which mitigates the trend of anxiety and perfectionism. The opposite of perfectionism is play. And perfectionism rates are rising in this next generation. So when we honor our three brains, when we bring in practices, self-care, emotional, the best way teachers can understand this is social-emotional, cognitive learning. We already got the the social-emotional part, the add in the cognitive, the critical thinking, the adaptable, the anti-group thing, learning for yourself, understanding misinformation, all of that. Now we have a school system that's a perfect match for the human intelligence system. It's a system of intelligence that we can match up really nicely.
Tim Fish: And it makes so much sense, but I think we often, we think that our brain, that our mind is only in our brain, the organ, right? And what you're saying is that that brain, even the brain is not only in our head, that it literally is in our heart, that it literally is in our gut, that it is not just metaphorically in our heart, it is literally in our heart, right?
Shimi Kang: It is literally. Yeah, so if you think of the brain as neurons that are intelligence that learn, yeah, we have them in our hearts. Serotonin is mostly in our guts. There's intelligence in our body. That's why we need to move our bodies. Walk it off. You want to solve a problem, take a walk, go to nature. So much intelligence that we're losing, I believe, by sitting at a desk, staring at screens. Nothing wrong with that part of it, but we want to add more to that experience.
Tim Fish: Yeah, so if you're a teacher and you want to be a future ready teacher, how do you structure to speak to all three brains in a sixth grade math classroom?
Shimi Kang: Well, that's awesome. I have free, we have free lesson plans for teachers of all grades on our future ready minds website. And the lesson plan looks like this. Imagine a classroom that starts with downtime.
OK, so kids have two or three minutes to transition, or five minutes even. Depending on their age, they need more time. So at the beginning of your class, if you can give five to eight minutes of downtime. Your screensaver is maybe nature, you got sounds of birds or waves. Maybe the lights are dim. Maybe you just pause, you know, show yourself sitting, maybe doing some mindful breathing. Whatever you think may work.
There's Sparky App, which I'm part of, which is a great one. Teachers are playing and practicing a mindful breathing or gratitude practice. So a little bit of downtime to settle. Let the cortisol adrenaline settle. Let's move out of stress into the growth parasympathetic system. Honor that gut brain. Then, an others practice, a heart brain practice. So you now acknowledge the classroom, say, hey everyone, welcome. So glad you're here. Let's take a moment. Let's look at each other, right? And do that emotional check-in if you can. If not, just some connecting aspects, a gratitude for maybe something a few students did that week, or acknowledging the admin that did something. Any kind of gratitude's a great bonding aspect. Bring the classroom together. Humor or joke or something funny is always a way to immediately move us out of stress into that growth system.
And then now you play, meaning now you've actually regulated the human system. People are primed, children are primed to learn. And the play would be, in, let's say, that sixth grade math class, I'm not going to teach you, let's say, about triangles and geometry, but that's the curriculum today. So you start with, how do you want to learn about triangles and geometry? The teacher is firm. We got to get this lesson through, but flexible, collaborative, asking the students what their input would be.
Some may say, let's go outside. Some may be like, you know, let's look at, you know, pictures, let's use our bodies and make triangles. Who knows, incredible ideas may come up. And the teacher has to have that balance of saying, OK, it's getting too jellyfish now. We got to get back to our lesson plan. But, you know, keeping it, through trial and error, keeping it with the agency and voice of the kids, and really guiding, right? Guiding the learning, as opposed to directing the learning. You know, that's that dolphin metaphor, the curiosity. So the play piece is not instruction, right? It's facilitated guiding towards that outcome.
In my workshops, I do this exercise called your favorite teacher, and I ask people to remember their favorite teacher. It's amazing, people go back, I had one gentleman who was in his 80s. He's like, I haven't thought of my favorite teacher for 70 years, but you know, her face, her name, just came to me like that. And the point of that exercise is we all had that favorite teacher who had that balance. They weren't too strict because we would have been scared and we wouldn't have had that sense of independence, but they also were not the jellyfish. There was structure and rules and they challenged us. They challenged us and we loved to learn.
I say that human beings are feet face forward. So that's what the future ready classroom would look like. A little bit of downtime, a little bit of others, that connection, a little bit of play, POD, that's the pod method. It folds into the dolphin metaphor.
Tim Fish: I love it. All right. So now, so, as a former sixth and seventh grade math teacher, that would have, that, that would have been incredibly helpful. And I tell you, I wasn't doing all of it for sure. You know, it was always go, go, go. You know, they were coming in, we had to get started. It was all about time on task. It was a big thing when I was learning to teach, it was all about time on task. How much of your lesson is time on task? And I think when we're in that design mode, we lose that opportunity to speak to the brain in our gut and in our heart. And probably we're not doing a very good job of our head as well.
All right. So here's the other area where I screwed up. As a parent, the dinner table, we tried to have dinner together as frequently as we could. And I think we tried as parents to do the best job we could. But you know what? Just as a teacher, I don't think I did it as well as I could have. So let's do dinner. With your three kids, or I'm not saying, even suggesting for a moment, that you're doing it perfectly either. I'm sure you probably have ways you think you could do it better. But what are some things you could think about at the dinner table that might help a family? Or if you're in a boarding school environment, you're having family lunch or family dinner, what are some things that somebody might take away from an informal environment like that?
Shimi Kang: Absolutely the same method. So the pod method, POD in a hierarchy, starting with the downtime. So, a dinner table, you start with some downtime and some others. I mean traditional wisdom tells us, right, sit for a moment, say grace or gratitude. In so many practices, indigenous practices. So you're at the dinner table, you pause right? You just take a moment. Acknowledge everyone. Say thank you all for being here. If you want to thank the food, the farmers who grew it, anything like that, that's your downtime and others, your connection. And then you play in the sense of the conversation.
And nobody wants a dinner table where someone's lecturing at them, but you do the same in terms of, hey, you know what, I just saw this news article, and on my mind, Tim, is the one from May where Vivek Murthy talked about social media being a significant threat to children's well-being. Let's say there's a topic on your mind. You can say, hey, I heard this, I read this. What does everyone think? So the pod method, starting with downtime, transition, relaxation, others connecting with each other. And this could be done in seconds. And then the play, the guided, structured, yet adaptable conversation. We can bring this to the dinner table, our homes, boarding schools, classroom, because it follows our neuroscience.
And I will say, you don't need to be an expert at this. My grade five teacher, Ms. McCullough, rest in peace because she passed away, but I remember her so fondly because she did it naturally. Somehow intuitively she started her classroom, you know, she used to love to dance or, you know, she was a dancer, so she would have some music on and we would relax and then she had the ability to connect. And, you know, she did this 40 years ago, and it was intuitive to her. So this is not just the science of who we are, this is our human nature and we all know it feels good, right? So, you know, when you said it probably didn't feel good when you were doing the task teaching that you talked about. But you did it anyway, maybe because you were young or stressed, but now you know better. So let's tap into our internal wisdom.
Tim Fish: So the same thing would hold true, I think, if we thought about how do we design a faculty meeting, right?
Shimi Kang: Yes, yes.
Tim Fish: Or how do we design an event where the parents are coming out to do some learning, right? A parent learning event night, start with the pods, start with the downtime, start with acknowledging each other, start with seeing each other in the room. Take that moment to pause, that count to 10 kind of thing.
Shimi Kang: Yeah, I try my best to do my events, workshops, keynotes in this methodology. We could have done it today on the podcast, maybe next time. But staff meeting again, there's templates on our website that have staff meetings because I speak to corporations, and you know, and there's an acceptance now. Five, 10 years ago, if I were to talk to Twitter or an oil company or Bank of America and say, start with a mindful minute. There would be this kind of glazed look, but because of the crisis and burnout and stress and mental health, and because people need the innovative mind, not that exhausted mind to put a bolt on a factory model, they're paying for these people for their critical thinking skills. You know, it's being adapted and used, and it's simple.
And just some simple breathing can really just be a profound difference in your staff meeting. Because if you don't do it and people walk in from another meeting ,or they're transitioning, or they just checked their Instagram before, they might be in what's called freeze mode. So they're mentally frozen, they're stuck, they're anxious, they're obsessing over something they just saw. Like that little blue circle on our computers, when we're stuck, frozen, they're in fight mode, irritable, or angry, or they're in flight mode, distracted. They're not even present, they're thinking of something else. Our brain, just like animals in nature, either freeze, fight, or fly, our brain does the same. We get anxious, we get stuck, we get irritated, or we get distracted.
Tim Fish: I think independent schools in particular do a great job of a lot of what we talk about. And there's a lot that we could continue to do even more. And I feel as we think about this idea of evolution and change, that folks are tired. And there's a feeling of exhaustion, and this idea even more so, change feels hard right now. And one of the things I love about your work is you talk about this idea that change starts in the brain.
And so I'm so curious about, as any organization thinks about how the organization, the culture, the organization is going to move from where we are to where we want to be, and that's going to involve some change. How should we be cognizant of the whole brain, and the whole brain system, and how that will affect our success or failure in trying to navigate that change?
Shimi Kang: Yeah, so change starts in the brain is a way to explain an incredible concept. I call it a six syllable word for hope, and it's neuroplasticity.
Tim Fish: I've heard that term before, but I haven't heard it associated with hope. So I'm excited to hear what you have to say.
Shimi Kang: Yeah, so neuroplasticity is a complex word, six syllables, but I believe it's the word for hope because what it means is we can always change, we can always learn, we can always grow, we can always do better. Humans are gifted with this idea, this concept of neuroplasticity, till the moment we die. And that's really important. You can be any age. You know, my father's 90 years old. He's still learning different kinds of poetry and things. You can have, even, brain damage. You know, I've worked with people with serious mental health issues, you know, schizophrenia, bipolar, autism, the severe spectrum. Everyone has neuroplasticity.
So, and the way it works, you know, is pretty simple. But simple again is not easy, right? Sleep, drinking water, is simple. It's not easy. Most of us on this call are chronically sleep deprived, chronically dehydrated. That actually impairs our neuroplasticity, our ability to learn and grow. One is where focus goes, neurons grow. So I'm going to give you two rhymes.
Where focus goes, neurons grow. Let's say you want to change your classroom to a more future ready classroom. And you want to focus, though, then you want to focus on the pod. You want to focus on the play. You want to focus on the others. You want to focus on the downtime. Bring these in and start small. There might be resistance, you know, from kids or parents or admin. And that's normal, because the– if I back up a bit, the psychology of change, in any given moment, there's only about 20, 30% of people in what's called action state of change. They are ready. The rest of the population is in pre-contemplation or contemplation. Because change by definition is a change, it's different!
So, you know, let's talk about cell phones in the lunchroom. There might be 20% of people who are ready. The other 80 are somewhere in pre-contemplation, like no way, or how are we going to call our kids, you know, kids need music, whatever it might be. They're not even thinking of it. And then there's a small group, probably 40, you know, split equal. Generally the studies show it's 20% pre-contemplation and about 60% contemplation who are like, yeah, good idea, but we don't know how, how is it going to look like, what's going to happen? And then the 20 in action.
So, and that's normal, and that's normal, because what happens with change are people like, well, people aren't ready yet. Well, if you're not ready, moving it forward, then people won't get ready. We have to have change agents and leaders behind it. So focus goes where neurons grow, put the focus on the goal, not the problem so much. We get motivated with optimism. We get motivated with stories of success. So what facilitates change? Examples, stories of success, optimism, all of that, but also distress. So if we're going to focus on the problem, it's not why we can't have change, but why we need change. And now that will help unlock and facilitate change as well.
And thirdly, the rhyme is neurons that wire together, fire together, meaning that we want to associate change with positivity, small wins, baby steps, celebrate those micro aspects of it. Again, wire and fire it with existing habits. So when I described, you know, the pod, the future ready classroom, a lot of that's probably already happening, right? There's probably already gratitude and mindfulness happening and connecting and the collaborative aspects. So just do more of it, wire and fire more of it with whatever's already existing. So those are some of the science behind change, but it's really important to know, because right now our world is disrupting in a very fast pace. There is no manual, there was no manual for the pandemic. There's no manual for AI, social justice issues, climate change. We all have to be masters of change.
Tim Fish: Yeah, yeah. I love that notion too, that there's about 20% that are ready to go. About 60% of the folks are contemplating. They're attitudinally aligned, maybe, in some ways, but don't know how, right? And then there's another group that just isn't there yet, right? They just haven't fully aligned yet or whatever. And it's that notion of understanding that and noticing the, creating the focus that we need to create that I think is so powerful.
Shimi Kang: I think that model can help teachers and educators even at a very individual level. So it could be big, huge systemic level, like the future ready school. But let's say the teacher’s in action, that…let's say the child needs to, you know, get more serious about their homework. So the teacher's in action, the child, let's say, is in pre-contemplation, like, no way, I'm going to play my video games, and the parents might be in contemplation. They're like, yeah, we need to get, you know, little Jimmy better focused on math, but they don't know how to do it, because let's say the video games are in the middle. So right there, you have a situation, the teacher's in action, the parent's in contemplation, the child's in pre-contemplation.
Let's understand the process and the steps to move towards action. Otherwise it can feel very frustrating after that parent teacher meeting, let's say.
Tim Fish: Yeah, and your notion also of, back to the notion of dolphin, jellyfish, or shark, coming into play here, right? That the shark approach on that change is probably not going to, it's not very effective to move people from pre-contemplation or contemplation to action. The shark doesn't do as good a job of that, nearly as good a job as a dolphin would, right?
Shimi Kang: Yeah, the shark would say, little Jimmy needs to focus on math. So here's your worksheets and get it done, right? That's what the shark teacher would say. The jellyfish would be, oh, little Jimmy needs to focus on math and, next topic, and not really give any strategies. The dolphin teacher would be like, you know what, how can we do this? What do you feel are the barriers? Elicit the answers, collaborative, shoulder to shoulder. Brainstorm, play with it. Well, storytelling, my other student did this, that's what their parents did. Really walking together with that solutions, right? Not giving up like the jellyfish, but not instructing like the shark.
Tim Fish: That's awesome. We talked a lot about this idea of change in a group, what could a classroom look like? What could a dining room table look like? What could a faculty meeting look like? What I'm interested now is, as a teacher or a student or a parent, what are some things I can do individually for myself to help build up my own well-being? What are some things I might do in the evening, or do after school, or whatever to help me? I imagine some of the same things we talked about apply, but are there other things that an individual can be doing on an ongoing basis?
Shimi Kang: Yeah, I think exactly, exactly the same in the sense of, you know, really being mindful of your three brains, your three centers of intelligence. I would tell everyone to start with, take inventory, ask yourself, how am I doing on a scale of one to 10 with downtime with self care? You know, am I a three? Well, hey, if I'm a three, I better get more sleep, drink water, you know, do some more connecting with others or get to that innovation because I'm running on cortisol and stress mode. How am I doing with my heart brain? How am I doing with my community, my sense of connection? If that's a six, what can you do better? Sometimes it's just moving the needle. Like, oh, I love my book club, but it's only once every three months. Maybe I should try meeting more often or doing something in between. It doesn't have to be a whole brand new thing. Just moving the needle forward.
And then ask yourself how am I doing with play? And this is a really important one because we are growing more and more perfectionistic. Perfectionism is seen as a badge of honor. It's linked to anxiety, depression, and poor life achievement. We're in a world that really focuses on the outside, whether it's our appearance, our social status, our financial status, our awards. Kids are picking that up, of course. And very intentional focus on play, meaning making mistakes, being comfortable with uncertainty, innovating, iterating, trial and error. All of this is messy business.
And so ask yourself, how am I doing with play? What have I tried new? What have I failed? How have I stretched myself? Am I adapting? And then pick one as the first place to start, right? And say, well, I think I'm in the mood to honor my gut brain, and I’m going to go back to self-care, or I'm feeling really this is the place with my sense of connection. But I would tell everyone, take inventory, that's the first step. You know yourself. And then move the needle a little bit further, you know, for whatever number you gave yourself.
Tim Fish: So good. And it's so helpful to me. And I like the way so much that you break it down, that you make it accessible, right? That I can just take my own inventory. How am I doing? How am I thinking about myself?
Shimi, I had no question that we were going to be able to fill this time up very, very quickly. It is such a great conversation. It is so great seeing you again. I'm wondering, just like we asked last time, any hopes for the future, things you would love to see in the next year or so, or more in education, where we're headed?
Shimi Kang: Yeah, I mean, I think this is the hope, an education system that is aligned with our neuroscience, that's aligned with our values, that's aligned with our deepest intuition.
You know, all of this makes sense. You know, common sense is the intelligence common to humanity. You know, when we look at human culture, we've always had downtime practices. We've always had community as a rule, and we've always learned from exploration and playing and trial and error. And we've gone off course, whether it's in the workplace, to a degree, in education, well intentioned, and the reason is, I think it was all kinds of history behind it. But part of it, I would say, is this dopamine, which is a wonderful neurochemical, but it's the sugar. It's the sugar of our life diet.
So just like the food we eat has been dominated by too much sugar, and that's been at the expense of our health and well-being, our lifestyles have too much of that dopamine sugar. That's the pleasure, right? The social media, the quick hits, the ego, the awards, the grades, like the external measures. Nothing wrong with a little bit of that, but we cannot stay in a dominated dopamine culture at the expense of the gut brain endorphin, the heart brain oxytocin, or head brain serotonin. So this is ancient wisdom and modern cutting edge science, but that's the hope and I honestly feel we will get there.
Tim Fish: Yeah, I love it. It's get back, get back to what's always been true, right? It's a less is more, in some ways. And so exciting, so exciting. Until next time, Dr. Kang, thank you so much for spending some more time with us.
Shimi Kang: Thank you, Tim, and thank you to your incredible team for their amazing work. It's always a pleasure.
Tim Fish: They are an incredible team. They sure are, thank you. Take care.